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Big Sister is Watching You (Whittaker Chambers on Ayn Rand)
NRO | 28 December, 1957 | Whittaker Chambers

Posted on 01/05/2005 11:22:24 AM PST by annyokie

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To: longshadow

Exactly

"Uncle Toms Cabin" is full of caricatures too.

As is "The Wandering Jew".

Etc. ad infinitum. Novels as political tracts are nothing new, and on the whole they aren't good novels.


181 posted on 01/05/2005 9:27:26 PM PST by buwaya
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To: furball4paws
I NEVER have and NEVER shall count the pages of a book,in order to determine whether I want to read it or not.But perhaps YOU should reread my post,before you take umbrage at my LAUGHING at the size of LES MISERABLE! I WAS 13 YEARS OLD and by that time,I had probably read infinitely more books,of that caliber,than you've read to date;not to mention the fact that I understood them all and that I read through ALL of Hugo that summer,as well as the required reading from my school.Oh yes,and I've even managed to read some of Hugo's works in the original French,pet. ;^)

Perhaps it is you who suffer from ADD,ADHD,and/or a terminal case of juvenile snottiness.

182 posted on 01/05/2005 9:28:54 PM PST by nopardons
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To: longshadow

I think "The Fountainhead" is still in print. I don't know of many fiction works lasting that long without a revival. (Mozart's operas (note the double plural) have never been revived, they're still in the repetroire.)


183 posted on 01/05/2005 9:30:41 PM PST by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch is der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: general_re
where cartoonish heroes resembling extremely vanilla versions of Mighty Mouse .... Because, let's be honest - you can't even imagine Dagny taking a dump, let alone wielding a plumber's helper, can you?

Bwahahahahahahaaaaa!!!!! Good golly, general, you truly have a unique and wonderful way of getting straight to the point!

184 posted on 01/05/2005 9:36:42 PM PST by r9etb
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To: fortheDeclaration

Most (if not all) of Rand's critics make that mistake about altruism.


185 posted on 01/05/2005 9:42:10 PM PST by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch is der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: fortheDeclaration

The Fountainhead was better as a novel. Most likely because the evils were personified and one could focus on them individually. Atlas Shrugged just has a bunch of interchangeable bureaucrats as the bad guys (accurate, but not dramatic.)


186 posted on 01/05/2005 9:45:13 PM PST by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch is der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: Sam the Sham

Good point. Being a mom and loving it, maybe that's why I couldn't warm to her, though I agree that Atlas can shrug and is trying to right now in illegal-alien-infested states.


187 posted on 01/05/2005 9:50:28 PM PST by Yaelle
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To: buwaya

Duing the 18th century, America was considered an intellectual backwater (except for Franklin) in all areas except governmental theory, in which the Americans were considered to be the leaders.


188 posted on 01/05/2005 9:51:16 PM PST by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch is der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: buwaya; general_re
Exactly

"Uncle Toms Cabin" is full of caricatures too.

As is "The Wandering Jew".

Etc. ad infinitum. Novels as political tracts are nothing new, and on the whole they aren't good novels.

==================================================

A non-political example: James Fennimore Cooper wrote some of the worst prose even written (see Mark Twain's essay on the Literay Sins of James Fennimore Cooper to see one of the most searing, scathing, and hilariously funny reviews ever written in the English language), but nitwithstanding that, his story "Last of the Mohicans" as manifested in the Michael Mann film of the same name, is as masterpiece. Compelling characters, epic sweep, historical backdrop, romance, struggle, war, life, death, hatred, revenge... it has it all. (Okay, I admit it, I have a soft spot for Madeline Stowe, too.)

In the original book form, it is a disaster; I you don't believe me, you can believe Twain.

189 posted on 01/05/2005 9:59:46 PM PST by longshadow
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To: longshadow
Thers'a rather more common vehicle to lay out philosophical issues, known as an "essay", and somewhere within the vast, elephantine bulk of the novel is a terse, cogent, well-reasoned essay, of about 50 pages or so, just screaming to get out of the literary prison it's currently in. I would have been very interested to read that essay, and I probably wouldn't be nearly as hard on that essay as I am on the novel. Otherwise, as a work of literature, it's really shockingly bad. Star Wars, as bad as it was in a literary sense, at least had the redeeming virtue of being fun, but there is nothing fun about Rand's fiction - she is deadly serious. Poisonously, soporifically serious.

And that's a problem, because the literary flaws of the work eventually come to overwhelm and overshadow the message she wants to convey. I think, and the responses on this thread tend to support me on this, that there are a great many people who, by about page 600 or so, come to conclude that the proper answer to "Who is John Galt?" is "Who gives a damn?" This is a case where the messenger interferes with the message so very badly as to render it indecipherable to a goodly portion of her readership, because a lot of people simply aren't willing to slog through the acres of literary muck to find the pearl hidden somewhere in the sty. And as a result, despite the commonly accepted aphorism to the contrary, this is a case where the messenger really needs shooting, and shooting with great enthusiasm, followed by an unburial so as to shoot the messenger yet again.

It's a tough gig she set up for herself - I don't think there's been a decent philosopher who was also a decent novelist since Voltaire, and Rand failed to break that streak rather spectacularly. Atlas Shrugged is living proof of the truth behind the old saw - basically, if you want to write a novel, write a novel. If, on the other hand, you want to send a message, call Western Union, because the history of attempts to do both in one shot is littered with casualties, Rand being merely one of the more recent. Influential? Certainly, but it's entirely possible to be influential without being a literary masterpiece, as Ayn so ably proves.

190 posted on 01/05/2005 10:11:01 PM PST by general_re (How come so many of the VKs have been here six months or less?)
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To: fortheDeclaration
No, the point was it was better to live free and not do what you loved then have your abilities and talents used against you to enslave you.

Well, yeah. That point, made repeatedly throughout the novel, is about as subtle as a brick to the head. My concern is not what her point was or whether it was worthwhile or insightful or whatever - what I'm saying is that the method she chose to deliver that point unto thee has more holes in it than a shotgunned swiss cheese.

191 posted on 01/05/2005 10:16:15 PM PST by general_re (How come so many of the VKs have been here six months or less?)
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To: annyokie
"Have you read Sam Tannenhaus' biography of Chambers? It is fascinating. Rand was a piker compared to Chambers."

Yes, and Buckley's book about chambers, Red Hunter.(I think that's what it's called.)

Now, if you haven't read Chambers' book Witness, do so.

I read all of Rands books beginning with Atlas Shrugged in late 1964.

192 posted on 01/05/2005 10:21:36 PM PST by blam
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To: Doctor Stochastic
The Fountainhead was better as a novel. Most likely because the evils were personified and one could focus on them individually. Atlas Shrugged just has a bunch of interchangeable bureaucrats as the bad guys (accurate, but not dramatic.)

I agree.

I think what also makes it a better read is because the central issue in the Fountainhead (integrity vs compromise) is something the average reader could identify with.

193 posted on 01/05/2005 10:43:17 PM PST by fortheDeclaration
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To: Doctor Stochastic
Duing the 18th century, America was considered an intellectual backwater (except for Franklin) in all areas except governmental theory, in which the Americans were considered to be the leaders.

Amen.

The great contribution that America has made to the World is in political theory.

194 posted on 01/05/2005 10:44:33 PM PST by fortheDeclaration
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To: general_re
No, the point was it was better to live free and not do what you loved then have your abilities and talents used against you to enslave you. Well, yeah. That point, made repeatedly throughout the novel, is about as subtle as a brick to the head. My concern is not what her point was or whether it was worthwhile or insightful or whatever - what I'm saying is that the method she chose to deliver that point unto thee has more holes in it than a shotgunned swiss cheese.

Well, the written word is pretty powerful.

Tom Paines 'Common sense' and 'Uncle Tom's Cabin' were very effective in moving people to act.

Rand's novels seem to have that ability also, maybe because they are so black and white.

195 posted on 01/05/2005 10:48:47 PM PST by fortheDeclaration
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To: Allan
That is true.

There's always a connection;-)

196 posted on 01/06/2005 12:11:25 AM PST by ARridgerunner
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To: Blzbba

"She also got her husband to leave his then-wife-and-family for her. Not much of a role model."

Ahhh .... didn't know this. I've read the book the Cult of Ayn Rand, but I don't recall this gem of a detail in there. What I do recall was that her husband from the very beginning was perfectly content to be witness and non protesting while she did her 'thing' w/ her inner circle, esp Branden.

This husband leaving wife AND kids tid bit ... do you have a source? For it is Rand's relationship to children I have always found to be the key point of focus when discussing her 'philosophy'...


197 posted on 01/06/2005 2:06:48 AM PST by gobucks (http://oncampus.richmond.edu/academics/classics/students/Ribeiro/laocoon.htm)
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To: Doctor Stochastic; Sam the Sham; fortheDeclaration
[Sam the sham] Childrearing is altruistic. It is totally subordinating your schedule to the needs of another. I think you are making the common mistake of misunderstading what Rand meant by áltruistic'.

[fortheDeclaration] She meant giving up a 'higher value'for a 'lower one'.

[Doctor Stochastic] Most (if not all) of Rand's critics make that mistake about altruism.

I think Rand should've called it "enlightened self-interest" vs. "self-sacrifice" or "self-abnegation". Instead she named the fight as "selfishness" vs. "altruism".
198 posted on 01/06/2005 2:14:55 AM PST by jennyp (Latest creation/evolution news: http://crevo.bestmessageboard.com)
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To: general_re
Thers'a rather more common vehicle to lay out philosophical issues, known as an "essay", and somewhere within the vast, elephantine bulk of the novel is a terse, cogent, well-reasoned essay, of about 50 pages or so, just screaming to get out of the literary prison it's currently in. I would have been very interested to read that essay, and I probably wouldn't be nearly as hard on that essay as I am on the novel.

I thought that about Galt's Speech. She should have just admitted to herself that she was developing a philosophy, and that her new philosophy deserved a non-fictional treatise to introduce it to the world. Then the novel that illustrates the sense of life embodied in her philosophy could blossom as a novel.

Plus, I felt that every page could have been 3/4 its actual length with a little bit of softening up of the sentence structure. But I think she prided herself on her precise, excruciatingly grammatically correct use of English. Which I think partially explains why the dialogue is so stilted as well.

Atlas Shrugged is living proof of the truth behind the old saw - basically, if you want to write a novel, write a novel. If, on the other hand, you want to send a message, call Western Union, because the history of attempts to do both in one shot is littered with casualties, Rand being merely one of the more recent. Influential? Certainly, but it's entirely possible to be influential without being a literary masterpiece, as Ayn so ably proves.

As a novel, I did enjoy The Fountainhead more. But I'm surprised that nobody's mentioned We The Living. That was her best novel <ahem> qua novel, IMO. Maybe it's because she was merely trying to illustrate the reality and essential contradiction of the Communist revolution, and she herself had said that she hadn't developed the philosophy of Objectivism when she wrote it. So her sense of life shines through the novel in a much less forced way, and reveals itself to be much more realistic & humane for it.

199 posted on 01/06/2005 2:28:21 AM PST by jennyp (Latest creation/evolution news: http://crevo.bestmessageboard.com)
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To: jennyp
I think Rand should've called it "enlightened self-interest" vs. "self-sacrifice" or "self-abnegation". Instead she named the fight as "selfishness" vs. "altruism".

I agree the terminology is hard to deal with.

One has to read her to understand where she was coming from.

One cannot say I love you without the I.

The great enemy she was going against was Kant, who taught that an act is only a virtue when one's highest values are given up.

So a husband must save an unknown woman and allow his own wife to drown.

If he saves his wife (even at the risk of his own life) it is not considered a virtue, but scorned as being 'selfish'.

You can see the roots of Nazi Germany and Communism in that philosophy.

200 posted on 01/06/2005 2:28:45 AM PST by fortheDeclaration
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