Boggs, Sandberg Elected to Baseball Hall of Fame

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=545&ncid=755&e=1&u=/ap/20050104/ap_on_sp_ba_ne/bbo_hall_of_fame ^ | Tue, Jan 04, 2005 | RONALD BLUM, AP Sports Writer

[MikefromOhio]

You keep your prayers for those kids...

I am out of there now. They need them more than I do....

Either way, both Ozzie and Cal have acquitted themselves very well outside of the game....

[Pylon]

His wife has a business here too so relocation was out of the question, but he still does some color work for ESPN when he is free. I can see him back in pro baseball though in a few years, would probably make a great batting coach. Opposing players used to come to him for advice and tips on hitting. He was one of the first to use video, now it is common practice.

[MikefromOhio]

yeah he made hitting into a profession....

its really amazing he didnt go to the AL to be a DH...

he would be breaking Pete Rose's record about now.....

[Pylon]

Speaking of San Diego baseball, I hope Jerry Coleman makes it into the broadcasters wing this year. 32 years on the radio, not to mention his years with the Yankees and also serving as a fighter pilot in WWII and Korea.

[BlackRazor]

Edgar Martinez's value is less compared to a player who has the same batting ability yet was also an asset in the field.

Oh, I don't disagree with that. The crux of my argument is that I think there are many HOF players who are enshrined largely due to their offensive contributions, who were not good enough defensively to have any positive impact to their team in that aspect of the game. Just playing the field shouldn't give you bonus points if you weren't particularly good there. On that basis, I think there's a bit of a double standard, or perhaps ignorance, with regards to the contributions of a DH in comparison. Someone else brought up Manny Ramirez. Great offensive player. Perhaps HOF worthy. But he's atrocious defensively. He hurts the team more than a DH who doesn't play the field. But that doesn't seem to figure into the HOF equation with position players who put up the offensive numbers.

And there's something of a double standard with regards to defense, too. Take Keith Hernandez. Well above average offensively. Arguably the best fielding first basemen ever. But his detractors will say that first base is not important enough of a defensive position for his defensive ability to put him over the top and into the HOF. Well, if some defensive positions aren't important enough, then why are we holding that against the DH's, most of whom would be playing the unimportant position of first base anyway!

[bjs1779]

What does that have to do with his batting ability? Is there something magic about the area between first and second base that sucks your hitting powers away? Rogers Hornsby played 2B, and he had 500 more RBIs than Ryno, with 200 fewer at-bats

If you want to play that game, Ted Williams had more homers than Ernie Banks and had 1700 fewer at bats. By your reasoning then, Banks shouldn't be in the Hall either.

Like it or not, Sandberg was one of the best at his position at batting and fielding. That is why he went to the Hall of Fame. If you deny Sandberg, you must also deny Joe Morgan.

If Sandberg gets you frosted up, take a look at Bill Mazeroski's numbers.

[general_re]

If you want to play that game, Ted Williams had more homers than Ernie Banks...

Ted didn't play infield. ;)

In any case, even if we stipulate that Williams was a better hitter than Banks - who can deny it? - it's also pretty clear that Ryno was nowhere near the hitter that Banks was. It's all about where you draw the line - if Williams > Banks > Sandberg, where should we draw the line for Hall of Famers? Personally, despite his fielding ability, I think Banks is clearly in, and Ryno's right on the cusp. You're of the opinion that Sandberg is clearly and obviously good enough, and I think he's kind of marginal. That's what's great about this country - I can have my opinion, and you can have yours, no matter how wrong you are ;)

[general_re]

Before the advent of the DH, that position was often referred to as first base.

Well, yeah, and when the DH has also been around for eighty years or so, that stigma may be somewhat less too ;)

[Rodney King]

And there's something of a double standard with regards to defense, too. Take Keith Hernandez. Well above average offensively. Arguably the best fielding first basemen ever. But his detractors will say that first base is not important enough of a defensive position for his defensive ability to put him over the top and into the HOF. Well, if some defensive positions aren't important enough, then why are we holding that against the DH's, most of whom would be playing the unimportant position of first base anyway!

Yeah, good point. I just don't want to ever get to the point where the Don Baylor's, Steve Balboni's, and Greg Luzniskis are up for the HOF because of their DH'ing.

[AppyPappy]

Yes but Johnson was a manager.

[bjs1779]

You're of the opinion that Sandberg is clearly and obviously good enough, and I think he's kind of marginal.

When you get around to looking up the stats of other Hall of Fame 2nd baseman, I will leave you with this. Even Babe Ruth didn't have a unanimous vote into the Hall either. BTW, how old are you? : )

[JURB]

He hit 100 RBIs or more exactly twice, in 1990 and '91, when he had exactly 100 both years, and that was despite having 40 home runs in the juiceball year of 1990.

You do realize that Sandberg was a #2 hitter through-out his career. If you are going to talk about RBI's (a woefully insufficient measure of a player's offensive contribution), you might as well also mention runs scored, especially since Ryno was a top of the order hitter. And in that category, he topped 100 runs scored seven times. And funny you mention 1990 as a juiceball year (it wasn't), Sandberg's 40 home runs led the league.

[Tall_Texan]

Harold Baines will be the really interesting case. A DH most of his career, he has put up some outstanding career hitting numbers but did very little else worthy of Hall consideration. Not counting Pete Rose and players certain to be inducted when they are eligible (like Boggs and Gwynn), Baines will have more career hits than any player not a certainty to get into the Hall.

With the logjam in 2007, I wouldn't go by the votes he gets in the first year but 2008 and 2009 will say a lot for Baines' HOF prospects which will also give some indication to how the voters will feel about Edgar Martinez who is roughly in the same situation.

[general_re]

You do realize that Sandberg was a #2 hitter through-out his career.

I seem to recall he batted third in '85 and '86, but if you want to look at him batting second, we can talk about his less-than-godlike career OBP of .344. Hornsby, by comparison, had a career OBP of .507. And any year where Sandberg can hit 40 home runs, and then 26 the year after, is juiced, practically by definition.

[general_re]

I know that 2B is traditionally a light-hitting position - Hornsby being the obvious exception - but that's why I don't buy into the usual only-compare-them-to-other-players-of-the-same-position analysis. There's not that much difference between the left side and right side of second base, and if we can find slugging shortstops somewhere in the world, there's no reason we can't find them to play 2b also. And personally, it doesn't bother me if that means there are zero second basemen in the HOF - Hall of Famers should be complete players, who can catch, throw, and hit.

[Charles Henrickson]

Yes, Sandberg made it! One of the ten best 2b--maybe one of the five best--in baseball history. Sandberg truly was a five-tool player--hit for average, hit for power, run, field, and throw--he could do it all. The best all-around second baseman of his era, he redefined the position.

All time at 2b, I rate Sandberg behind Hornsby, Collins, Morgan, maybe Lajoie and Gehringer, but ahead of everyone else.

Now if one of the five or ten best 3b--Ron Santo--makes it in via the Veterans Committee, I think it will be time for my first trip to visit Cooperstown this summer.

Then Bruce Sutter and Lee Smith get voted in next year.

[Charles Henrickson]

Player Votes %

Wade Boggs 474 91.9%
Ryne Sandberg 393 76.2%

Bruce Sutter 344 66.7%
Jim Rice 307 59.5%
"Goose" Gossage 285 55.2%
Andre Dawson 270 52.3%
Bert Blyleven 211 40.9%
Lee Smith 200 38.8%
Jack Morris 172 33.3%
Tommy John 123 23.8%
Steve Garvey 106 20.5%
Alan Trammell 87 16.9%
Dave Parker 65 12.6%
Don Mattingly 59 11.4%
Dave Concepcion 55 10.7%
Dale Murphy 54 10.5%
Willie McGee 26 5.0%

Jim Abbott 13 2.5%
Darryl Strawberry 6 1.2%
Jack McDowell 4 0.8%
Chili Davis 3 0.6%
Tom Candiotti 2 0.4%
Jeff Montgomery 2 0.4%
Tony Phillips 1 0.2%
Terry Steinbach 1 0.2%
Mark Langston 0 0.0%
Otis Nixon 0 0.0%

[Pharmboy]

Sandberg was a class act. As a Mets fan, I always appreciated his play.

[Charles Henrickson]

2006: Rick Aguilera, Tim Belcher, Will Clark, Alex Fernandez, Gary Gaetti, Dwight Gooden, Ozzie Guillen, Juan Guzman, Orel Hershiser, Gregg Jefferies, Lance Johnson, Doug Jones, Roberto Kelly, Mickey Morandini, Hal Morris, Jaime Navarro, Luis Polonia, Mike Stanley, Walt Weiss, John Wetteland, Mark Whiten

None of these guys is Hall worthy.

[Charles Henrickson]

2007: Harold Baines, Derek Bell, Dante Bichette, Bobby Bonilla, Jeff Brantley, Jay Buhner, Ken Caminiti, Jose Canseco, Eric Davis, Tony Fernandez, Tony Gwynn, Darryl Hamilton, Pete Harnisch, Charlie Hayes, Glenallen Hill, Ken Hill, Stan Javier, Wally Joyner, Ramon Martinez, Mark McGwire, Paul O’Neill, Gregg Olson, Cal Ripken Jr., Bret Saberhagen, Jeff Shaw, Kevin Tapani, Devon White, Bobby Witt

Ripken, McGwire, and Gwynn are all worthy. Ripken is the second-best SS of all time (behind Wagner).