UKRAINE

NRO-TC ^ | December 26, 2004 | Michael Ledeen

[swilhelm73]

Yushchenko seems to have won, big big bigtime, in the Ukraine. Big turnout--around 78%--and big margin, about 15 points. It's a dramatic and important moment, and the winning forces of the "orange revolution" are right to talk about democratic revolution. Here is yet another case where the forces of repression seemed to have all the advantages, including the reconstituted KGB and the full, cynical, support of a nasty Russian tyrant. Yet freedom won. For those of us who have long preached the power of democratic revolution, it's a happy day, and I hope that our leaders draw the appropriate lessons: --The mild support we gave to the democratic forces in the Ukraine proved far more powerful than most of the experts expected. The revolutionaries required a bit of guidance in the methods of non-violent resistance, a bit of communications gear, and many words of encouragement. They did the rest. The same can and should be done elsewhere in the world (Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, China, North Korea...) --Our democratic values are shared by the overwhelming majority of the people in the world, and are rejected, sometimes violently, by tyrants and their followers. We need to stick to our principles, which means that we cannot blindly and compulsively support all the policies of individual anti-democratic leaders just because they help us. That kind of support always gets us in trouble (as in the Middle East, where we are justly criticized for our many decades of support for corrupt tyrants). Sometimes we will have to make some compromises, but when we do, we must still support democratic forces--openly, unapologetically;

--You can't always see the revolutionary forces inside oppressive countries, but, given a chance, they will emerge more often than not. We are the most successful revolutionary society in history, we have to stand with our people, everywhere; --When we have alliances with "friendly tyrants" (Musharaff, Putin, Mubarak, Deng, the Saudis et. al.), we must encourage them to get on the right side of history, and share power. This is the only honest way to manage such alliances, because it is only a matter of time before the American people turn against our tyrannical allies, and we will then abandon them, usually in the worst circumstances. Thus, for example, it is fine to condemn and fight against Chechen terror, but it is wrong to remain silent in the face of Russian massacres in Chechnya. Freedom is the best weapon against the terrorists, everywhere, because free societies are much less likely to support them; The "age of the second democratic revolution," which began with the death of Franco and continued through the fall of the Soviet Empire, is still very much with us. The cynical and exhausted leaders of France, Germany, and post-Aznar Spain don't believe in it, but they are increasingly irrelevant to world affairs.

A great day for freedom. If we do not flag, we'll have many more in the near future.

[judywillow]

Here is yet another case where the forces of repression seemed to have all the advantages, including the reconstituted KGB and the full, cynical, support of a nasty Russian tyrant.

Sorry, no sale. Vladimir Putin is the best ruler Russia has ever had since Tsar Peter, and there is no possibility of George Soros being on the right side of something like this any more than there is of the sun coming up in the west tommorrow morning. After Israel, Russia is the single most valuable ally we could possibly have in any sort of a struggle against islammic terrorism, but not if we continue treating Russians like assholes simply because we can, and trying to build some sort of a NATO or quasi-NATO ring around Russia is treating them like assholes.

[rodguy911]

Russia sure was helpful in Iraq all right selling weapons and training Saddam's people right up until the day we moved in. With allies like the russians......

[blackminorcapullets]

"Sorry, no sale. Vladimir Putin is the best ruler Russia has ever had since Tsar Peter,"

Is this the same Peter that killed several million Ukrainian serfs building his monument in the swamp, St Petersburgh?

The ability of russophiles to wash blood off their hands would put any Proctor Gamble ad campaign to shame.

And the best ruler Russia will ever have is Yushchenko. Kiev is the ancient capital of Rus and its future one. Mockva is morally bankrupt despite the promise it held 10 years ago and as your Peter dragged Russia into the 18th century with the blood of millions, so will Yushchenko drag it into the 21st, not with blood, but with virtue.

Think Orange, not Red

bmp

[TheHound]

Vladimir Putin is the best ruler Russia has ever had since Tsar Peter.

The definition of a "ruler" is a sovereign: a monarch; a king, queen, or other supreme ruler. So in a sense you are right, but he needs to kill at least a few million people to actually be classed the Tsar Peter.

[KOZ.]

falsifying elections, forging elections, assisanation attempts, corruption and domination. assholes should be treated like assholes.

[Lukasz]

Again the same melody, I told you before that Peter the Great was a butcher.

[judywillow]

And the best ruler Russia will ever have is Yushchenko. Kiev is the ancient capital of Rus and its future one. Mockva is morally bankrupt despite the promise it held 10 years ago and as your Peter dragged Russia into the 18th century with the blood of millions, so will Yushchenko drag it into the 21st, not with blood, but with virtue.

So Moscow is just going to sort of fade away while Kiev reassumes its slavic leadership position from before the Mongol invasions?

Basically, the people voting for George Soros and Youschenko are catholics, i.e. the Ukranians who figure the Ukraine ought to still be tied to Poland. Most of the slavic world is orthodox.

Oh, yeah, probably should mention that all the former and would-be nazis in the Ukraine voted for Youschenko too, and most slavs hate naziism and nazis...

[blackminorcapullets]

"So Moscow is just going to sort of fade away while Kiev reassumes its slavic leadership position from before the Mongol invasions"

Did I say fade/ No, it will be more like an implosion when oil gets back to $20/barrel. Or don't you remember what Reagan did when your mighty Russia was on its hands and knees with $16/barrel oil.

And there is nothing more powerful than an idea whose time has come. Kiev will now draw western investment and be the gateway to your "great slavic brotherhood".

"Basically, the people voting for George Soros and Youschenko are catholics,"

I am Orthodox and so is Yushchenko. What on earth are you trying to foist on this site. Don't you realize the demographics of Freepland precludes an audience for your Kremlin Klaptrap?

Try the Disney Chat Room.

", i.e. the Ukranians who figure the Ukraine ought to still be tied to Poland."

My parents are western Ukrainian and that area has a viscious history of hatred for Poles. Did'nt you ever see Taras Bulba with Yul Brynner and Tony Curtis where the Cossacks chop off the hand of the Pole General?

Again, you are spouting pure Kremlin propaganda and did I mention the Disney Chat Room - I think they have a corner for Mother Goose Marxism.

"Oh, yeah, probably should mention that all the former and would-be nazis in the Ukraine voted for Youschenko too, and most slavs hate naziism and nazis..."

No most people hate Moscow where the architects of Genocide slaughtered 80 million in the last century.

Don't you realize there will be a "Nuremburgh" for Russians? There's no such thing as a free lunch baby and payback for killing 80 million is going to be a bitch.