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To: cosmicassassin
Then there's the argument from miracles. There is no plausible naturalistic explanation for these miraculous phenomena, many of which are observable today:

Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano
Blood of St. Januarius
The Tilma of Guadalupe
Incorrupt bodies of the saints
Fatima
Shroud of Turin
Sudarium of Oviedo

101 posted on 12/23/2004 10:40:10 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: Aquinasfan
Give me a break. You have various chunks of mummified flesh (maybe, if the True Believers who conducted the tests didn't introduce a little personal bias into the results), of very dubious provenance, and these are supposed to prove something? The Shroud of Turin has been carbon-dated and was likely created in 1355.

We have the same sort of thing in Ireland, where the head of 'Blessed Oliver Plunkett' was supposed to have been preserved incorrupt since he was offed by the Brits. I remember, back when I was still a Catholic, looking at it and wondering 'Is this really any different than any other 300 year old head would look?'.

I mean, just a modicum of skepticism here, please? You might have been able to sell this stuff to poor, ignorant 18th century peasants, but I think you better update the shtick.

138 posted on 12/23/2004 12:03:33 PM PST by Right Wing Professor
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To: Aquinasfan

> Incorrupt bodies of the saints

Just on this one alone. Please note that many years after his death, Napoleons body was exhumed and - GASP! - he was foudn to be in like-new condition. Does that make Napoleon Bonapart a miracle worker?

From your Fatima website: "During the June 1917 apparition, Our Lady confided a secret to the seers. The two first parts were only divulged after the Second World War. The first part of the secret concerned the vision of hell; the second part was of universal value. In it Our Lady predicted the Second World War..."

How miraculous. A prediction of something that already happened. Behold! I predict that Time will choose Bush as Man of the Year!

The Lanciano and Januarius "miracles" are pretty easily explained. In the former case... yeah, fine, they're real human body parts fromt he 8th centuiry. What, nobody could butcher a body back then?

As for the liquifying blood trick:
http://www.cicap.org/en_artic/at101014.htm

As for the tilma: what, you've never seen a grilled cheese samich with the Virgin Mary on it?

And for the Shroud and the Sudarium... they are *at* Best* bits of cloth with blood on 'em. Nothing exactly miraculous about that.

There are so many better miracles that people could choose. But those trying hardest to push their faith always seem to go for the glitzy, cheesy and easily refuted ones.


148 posted on 12/23/2004 1:04:43 PM PST by orionblamblam
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