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To: scripter
I checked out the websites you provided. The NARTH site was the most helpful in terms of my inquiries to you.

While I could not find anything reflecting an aggregrate total number of "former homosexuals" which would support your estimate of "tens of thousands", nevertheless I did find several specific clinical studies which reported on results of therapeutic intervention. Many of these studies were conducted in the 1980's or early 1990's and often they reported upon very small numbers of patients (often less than a dozen).

One of the largest studies (Bieber, 106 persons, summary copied below) included a 5-year follow-up review--although the review was limited to only about 50% of the "successful" conversions (15 of 29 persons).

Obviously, there is no way to know if the Bieber study accurately reflects typical results from therapy but if it is in the general vicinity of accuracy about therapeutic effectiveness, then 73% of homosexuals and bisexuals CANNOT be converted to heterosexuality through therapy. In addition, based upon Bieber's 5-year follow-up study, we could expect 2% of initially successful converts to revert back from heterosexuality to homosexuality or bisexuality for a total of 75% non-successful therapy.

Consequently, if the "tens of thousands" statistic you use is accurate (and assuming there is no significant reduction to that number caused by post-therapy return to homosexual or bisexual behavior which has NOT been captured by follow-up studies), then one must presume that a huge number of homosexuals and bisexuals have sought, via therapy, to change their sexual orientation.

For example, if Bieber's 25% success rate is approximately accurate, then a minimum of 80,000+ persons must have been in therapy to produce 20,000+ conversions. 20,000 being the minimum number that could accurately be encompassed by the phrase "tens of thousands of former homosexuals".

Which leads to the next question: If such a huge number of persons have sought to convert from homosexuality to heterosexuality, where are all the LARGE studies (involving several hundred participants) to document the results? Or perhaps an accumulation of smaller but still substantial studies--such as Bieber's (i.e. 100-200)?

In other words, why do MOST of the clinical studies shown on NARTH discuss such miniscule samples of 4, 8, 10, 20 people?

See:

http://www.newdirection.ca/research/bieber.htm

Brief Description: This study compares 106 male homosexuals and 100 male heterosexuals, all in treatment with members of the Society of Medical Psychoanalysts

"Summary of Results:

1. Of the 72 patients who had been exclusively homosexual at the start of treatment:

* 42 remained exclusively homosexual

* 2 were sexually inactive

* 14 were bisexual

* 14 were exclusively heterosexual

2. Of the 30 patients who had been bisexual at the start of treatment:

* 2 were sexually inactive

* 13 remained bisexual

* 15 became exclusively heterosexual

3. Of the four homosexual patients who had been sexually inactive at the start of treatment:

* 1 was exclusively homosexual

* 2 remained sexually inactive

* 1 was bisexual (all data from Table XI-1, p. 276)

4. As discussed above, twelve of the fifteen patients who were followed for five years remained consistently heterosexual. According to Bieber (1987, p. 424), seven of these twelve had been exclusively homosexual before treatment. Thus, seven persons who were initially exclusively homosexual, remained exclusively heterosexual in behaviour for at least five years. (Note: Bieber 1967 does not distinguish between those who were initially exclusively homosexual and those who were initially bisexual.)

5. It is possible that some of the patients who were exclusively homosexual at the start of treatment experienced a partial or full shift in sexual orientation. However, based on the previous three items, there is no data to confirm or deny such a possibility.

Thus, at the time of the study, 29 patients who had been bisexual or exclusively homosexual had become exclusively heterosexual. A five-year follow-up was done on 15 of these patients: 12 of these continued to be exclusively heterosexual, and three "remained predominantly heterosexual, with sporadic homosexual episodes under situations of stress" (Bieber 1967, p. 972; Bieber 1987). "

658 posted on 01/12/2005 9:08:13 PM PST by Ernie.cal
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To: Ernie.cal
I suggest you start where I previously sent you, post 602. You responded to the post yet completely ignored the links. If the title of the article is truncated, you can place your mouse over the title for more information.

Since you're apparently playing games and running from questions (by responding to them without answering them), I'll not waste anymore of my time.

I very much encourage you to read what former homosexuals have to say on the matter. You might want to start with reading the short bios of former homosexuals in post 604, 605, and 606.

For even more information, checkout my categorical index:

Homosexual Agenda: Categorical Index of Links
There's a huge update coming soon, with nearly 800 categorized articles on the homosexual agenda.

You might find the following helpful as well:

 
After the Ball: How America Will Conquer Its Fear and Hatred of Gays in the 90's  
    The Pink Swastika  
    The Death of Right and Wrong  
Another great read:
The Homosexual Propaganda and Media Manipulation Game...
Happy reading.
659 posted on 01/12/2005 9:45:46 PM PST by scripter (Tens of thousands have left the homosexual lifestyle)
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