A Republican hero, but was Abe Lincoln gay?

Guardian / The Observer ^ | December 19, 2004 | Paul Harris

[TFine80]

It is news guaranteed to make many Republicans squirm. Was Abraham Lincoln, founder of the party now seeking a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage in America, actually gay himself?

A new book, published next month, certainly thinks so. The Intimate World of Abraham Lincoln by C.A. Tripp produces evidence that one of America's greatest Presidents had a long-term relationship with a youthful friend, Joshua Speed, and shared his bed with David Derickson, captain of his bodyguards.

Tripp, a former researcher for sex scientist Alfred Kinsey and an influential gay writer, includes asides by many of Lincoln's close friends. 'He was not very fond of girls, as he seemed to me,' his stepmother, Sarah Bush Lincoln, once told a friend.

It also includes a diary excerpt by one upper-class Washington woman who wrote of Derickson: 'There is a Bucktail soldier here devoted to the President, drives with him, and when Mrs L is not home, sleeps with him. What stuff!'

Scholars have long debated Lincoln's sexuality, and as early as the 1920s were making veiled references to his relationship with Speed. However, critics say that in the pioneer days men sleeping together in rough circumstances was not uncommon.

Now Tripp has discovered letters between Lincoln and Speed which supposedly betray a deep intimacy.

But Tripp's book really breaks new ground in its exhaustive portrayal of many of Lincoln's possible gay lovers, including one man who said Lincoln's thighs 'were as perfect as a human being could be'.

'Make no mistake - Abe Lincoln was gay,' said Professor Scott Thompson, from the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy at Tufts.

But David Donald, a Harvard professor and respected Lincoln biographer, has disputed Tripp's findings in his own book, We Are Lincoln Men, published last year, and says there is no definitive proof of Lincoln having affairs with any men.

[GOPcapitalist]

You're not a fan of Patrick Henry, are you?

Why would it matter if I was? Henry was neither a terrible man nor a perfect one. But that does not alter the simple fact that the effects of murder upon the victim are necessarily more severe than the effects of enslavement, however horrible the latter may be, simply because the item that the former deprives cannot be restored whereas the item that the latter deprives can.

[Quinotto]

Here's what I don't understand: why does it matter if someone is gay or not? According to the gay activists, this is what they strive for, equality and acceptance and yet they are the ones emphasizing on people's sexual orientation as if that has a special merit. Their twerped behavior in giving a homosexual twist to everything went that far where they claimed that Bugs Bunny was gay because he ... kept kissing Elmer Fudd! Or maybe him nibbling on a carrot gave a sexual denotation! (I enjoy baby carrots, what does it say about me?) But then he kept jumping into holes so that means he was straight, right? They can't argue cross-dressing because many straight men enjoy cross-dressing as a fetish.

---

[Mad Mammoth]

Lincoln shredded the Constitution, to be sure. He put the continuation of the federal government above the interests of the people and states. There is no excuse for that.

Here's a hypothetical "tell you what" situation:

If sometime between now and January 2009 there were a sudden uprising of Islamofascists who managed to seize control of the state and local governments of say...Michigan! (where there are large numbers of Muslims) and proclaimed an 'Islamic Republic of Michigan', seceding from the Union, you can bet your azz that President Bush won't worry about whether or not all the i's are dotted and t's are crossed in being completely (ahem) "constitutional" about putting down that uprising and restoring order, and (BIG drum roll here) "preserving the Union".

Be sure to give Jubilation T. Cornpone my regards.

[Mad Mammoth]

Lincoln was a nonbeliever as documented by those closest to him throughout his life, and thus is an unlikely candidate for eternal reward

Say, that's pretty funny. Proves that God has a sense of humor that even trickled down to your DNA.

That means that (according to you) when all of those Islamofascists and their child-murdering brethren reach THEIR fiery fate, they'll be spending eternity with Honest Abe. I love it.

Now on a more serious note, your seething comments about Lincoln only demonstrate why humanity as a whole is infinitely fortunate that it is GOD and not merely man (you for instance) who determines the fate of each individual.

Maybe you could try channeling John Breckinridge and see if he'd be interested in a recount of the 1860 results, you know "make every secessionist vote count", eh?

[shaking head at this thread]

Regards,

MM

[Melas]

Yes, and George Washington was really a crossdresser, and Thomas Jefferson was a pre-op transexual.

[the invisib1e hand]

the biggest menace to civilization is homosexuality.

[Non-Sequitur]

the biggest menace to civilization is homosexuality.

And here all this time I've been worrying about bin Laden.

[Mad Mammoth]

Perhaps you could address your grievances more properly by directing them to the nearest Embassy of the Republic of Alabama, so they might investigate your concerns at the diplomatic level.

Why would I need an embassy to investigate what is known to be historical fact?

Ahhh c'mon, give it a try - the Embassy of Alabama has someone available for your ilk 24 hours a day, just call "1-800-HAIL-No"

Unlike you yankee types who are always looking for some sort of handout, reparation, or free ride off the backs of others who in reality owe you nothing,

Now you did it Sparky. FYI, I was born below the Mason Dixon line and I am a proud Son of the South. Unlike you, I have been able to put aside the grievances and contentious issues of the past, got myself a real life, and MOVED ON (no comparison to DU freakazoids who appropriated that name and domain).

I have no need for payment to redress the grievances committed upon roughly half the geographical area of this country by Abe Lincoln. The million body death toll and destruction he caused can never be replaced by material things thereby making the pursuit of such payment fruitless.

You must be holding out for reparations pal, otherwise you wouldn't keep talking about all our losses. Let it go bud, and try to remember that the first request Lincoln made after the surrender of the South was to ask that the band play "Dixie". And that was a sincere and gracious gesture for which he receives little credit. (not that I'm expecting any from you).

My only interest here is to document the crimes he and his minions committed against humanity with the hope that they may serve as a warning from history and shall never be repeated.

Your only interest in my view, is to bemoan the fact that you can't see the Stars & Bars waving from every flagpole, sip Mint Juleps in the afternoon, and have Rastus ask if you and the missus would like to take a carriage ride around to the Abe Lincoln Municipal Garbage Dump where you can drop off your recyclables.

A new year (2005) is approaching. You've been carrying this 140 year old torch for God knows how long. A good New Years Resolution would be to let the dead bury their own dead, and get on with living in the 21st century.

Happy New Year, and God Bless Dixie.

[the invisib1e hand]

And here all this time I've been worrying about bin Laden.

they're tied for first. At bin Laden is an acknowledged enemy. Homosexuality is an insidious cancer.

[the invisib1e hand]

"at bin Laden" should read "at least bin Laden."

[GOPcapitalist]

Say, that's pretty funny.

On the contrary. Matters of eternal salvation and damnation are hardly a laughing matter.

That means that (according to you) when all of those Islamofascists and their child-murdering brethren reach THEIR fiery fate, they'll be spending eternity with Honest Abe.

Pretty much. In fact they'll be in good company with each other for a number of reasons. Both blasphemed the true God as mohammedans worship false deities and Lincoln worshipped no deity. Both also have innocent blood on their hands: Mohammedans blow up women and children and Lincoln sent soldiers who raped, tortured, robbed, and murdered women and children.

Now on a more serious note, your seething comments about Lincoln only demonstrate why humanity as a whole is infinitely fortunate that it is GOD and not merely man (you for instance) who determines the fate of each individual.

Methinks you should consider your own advice before offering it to others. Recall that it was you, not I, who began this line of conversation by pretending to have knowledge that Abe Lincoln was spending eternity in heaven. In addition to noting the simple fact that no mortal can have that knowledge in his earthly existence to a point of certainty, I proceeded to outline several pieces of sound evidence leading to the inevitable conclusion that Lincoln's salvation is unlikely: specifically the facts that he was a nonbeliever in God and that he had widespread innocent blood on his hands, both of which tend to preclude a person from admittance into heaven though again none can say for certain.

You on the other hand have operated from the single unwavering yet illogical premise that Lincoln must be in heaven because...well...he's Lincoln and you said so! By starting with that faulty premise you necessarily preclude any other possibility both real (as known only to God) and suggested by the evidence about Lincoln (as is known to us) since in doing so you already affirm your "conclusion" of his salvation. You're stepping mighty close to blasphemy in your own right by making declarations like that, and yet you have the audacity to lecture me about attempting to assert sure knowledge of another individuals fate when I have done nothing of the sort! Go figure.

[GOPcapitalist]

Now you did it Sparky. FYI, I was born below the Mason Dixon line and I am a proud Son of the South.

So you claim. Real southerners have names for people like you: scalawag.

Unlike you, I have been able to put aside the grievances and contentious issues of the past

In other words, you have chosen to neglect/ignore matters of history that you find to be unpleasant or overly complex intrusions upon your simplistic mindset. We have a name for that too: denial.

You must be holding out for reparations pal, otherwise you wouldn't keep talking about all our losses.

Only an illiterate or a liar would offer that statement in response to my comment that "I have no need for payment to redress the grievances committed upon roughly half the geographical area of this country by Abe Lincoln. The million body death toll and destruction he caused can never be replaced by material things thereby making the pursuit of such payment fruitless." I'll let you pick which one you want to be.

Let it go bud, and try to remember that the first request Lincoln made after the surrender of the South was to ask that the band play "Dixie". And that was a sincere and gracious gesture for which he receives little credit. (not that I'm expecting any from you).

In other words "Yeah, I know I killed all your husbands, raped all your wives, and starved all your children but let me make it up to you by playing a song you like and we can call it even!" That's some strange logic you operate around.

Your only interest in my view, is to bemoan the fact that you can't see the Stars & Bars waving from every flagpole, sip Mint Juleps in the afternoon, and have Rastus ask if you and the missus would like to take a carriage ride around to the Abe Lincoln Municipal Garbage Dump where you can drop off your recyclables.

Typical needless invective from the dishonest scalawag. Rather than engaging in a factual conversation, you take to slandering your opponent with false accusations of sympathy for slavery. In reality you have long ago forfeited your right to assert a moral position on slavery by wantonly tolerating and excusing murderous crimes against humanity by Lincoln as if they were of no consequence or wrong. You might as well be Joe Stalin telling Hitler to "stop the genocide."

[PeaRidge]

"What further distinguishes you from me is that I look back on the states that supported slavery and think they were wrong."

As early as 1711 a slave market was established in New York City in the neighborhood of Wall Street and the East River, where slaves from Africa were brought to be sold.

There was another prominent slave market in Boston.

Neglecting fishing and whaling, by the 1750's many New England shippers, with specially constructed slave ships, financed by local and New York bankers, departed New England loaded with trinkets, weapons, and rum for the African slave brokers.

These were the items of barter for payment to the African tribal leaders for their slaves.

1760 was the time of New England’s peak use of slaves. Approximately one in four families owned slaves.

All of the New England states later abolished the practice of slavery by the 1800’s.

Their ships still transported slaves throughout the Caribbean until the 1860's.

Slaves were included in the New England population census for 1840, and as late as 1848 Rhode Island was passing new laws outlawing slavery. New Hampshire passed a new law outlawing slavery there even later – in 1857.

Many of their active citizens, however, stated that they did not believe black people were capable of citizenship and did everything they could to get rid of them.

The American Colonization Society was very active in New England. This organization raised funds to deport blacks to Liberia and other foreign lands. At one point, some 12,000 free blacks had been deported to Liberia, most of whom perished there.

To New Englanders, "abolition" meant the complete absence of black people from their "chosen land." As Emerson stated, "the abolitionist wishes to abolish slavery, but because he wishes to abolish the black man".

One writer said that would "restore New England to an idealized original state as an orderly, homogenous, white society. A free New England would be a white New England".

In the first half of the nineteenth century New Englanders were bombarded with graphic and literary representations of blacks as being preposterous, stupid, or evil.

Free blacks in New England were lampooned and savagely ridiculed publicly, urged to leave the country, attacked, rioted against, excluded from juries, and even from cemeteries.

Another writer stated that black “graves were dug up so that white cemeteries would not be tainted." The corpses of people of color seem to have become a target of grave robbers.

Black children were excluded from most public schools, even though their working parents were taxpayers.

There was a New England version of the Ku Klux Klan as well, in the form of roving gangs that conducted armed raids on black communities and the institutions that served them. So it turns out the "Klan," like the Black Codes, was not a Southern invention.

All of this violence was motivated by the fundamental New England belief that black people were "anomalous and troublesome strangers."

The ultimate objective of all the violence and harassment was to realize the "promise" that Negroes would slowly diminish in number until finally they would disappear altogether.

The degraded situation of the poor, hapless ex-slaves of New England was a direct result of both slavery and the savage, institutionalized discrimination against them by new Englanders.

By 1853 Frederick Douglas would observe the situation in New England and ask, "What stone has been left unturned to degrade us? What hand has refused to inflame the popular prejudice against us? What whit has not laughed at us in our wretchedness?"

Through the activists of the time, it is known that most New England Yankees did not blame any of this on themselves. The reason given why New England’s black population was in such dire straights, they said, was Southern slavery.

This is how the myth of the morally superior Yankee came into being – by rewriting 200 years of New England history.

By the late 1850s, this Yankee myth pervaded much of the North, especially the Midwest, where New Englanders had been migrating to for generations.

At the time, states like Illinois constitutionally prohibited the emigration of black people into the state, deprived the miniscule number of free blacks there of any semblance of citizenship, and actively attempted deportation with the help of state colonization societies.

Abraham Lincoln had been the head of the Illinois Colonization Society and he supported the allocation of tax funds to be used to deport free blacks from Illinois.

When the extension of slavery into the new territories became a big issue, one of the chief reasons Northerners were opposed to it was that they intended to New England-ize the territories, and that meant keeping them all white. That could never occur with either slaves or free blacks there. This policy – and Lincoln’s support of it – is one reason why some states seceded from the Union


8/8/1860 Under command of Capt. Nathaniel Gordon, the ship Erie was discovered by the United States steamer Mohican, on the morning of the 8th day of August, 1860. She was then about fifty miles outside of the River Congo, on the West Coast of Africa, standing to the northward, with all sail set. She was flying the American flag. A gun from the Mohican brought her aside.

Lieutenant Todd of the USS Mohican went on board himself about noon, and took command of the prize. He found on board of the Erie eight hundred and ninety-seven (897) Negroes, men, women, and children.

Mr. Gordon was probably the most successful of the individuals engaged in the trade. A native of Maine, he had engaged in the business many years since, and had always eluded justice.

"What further distinguishes you from me is that I look back on the states that supported slavery and think they were wrong."

So, that would include a number of states in the North and West as well.

[Red Phillips]

I leave for a few days and miss all this fun.

XJarhead, I complimented you for your civility and then you had to go an be like that. I expect better from an ex Marine. So does the derogatory slander of "white trash" mean that everyone who believe the South had a right to secede is white trash? I think some of the university faculty such as Donald Livingston at Emory would object to that characterization. Do you realize the term "white trash" has racial origins? It was a term of derision used by middle and upper class whites to denote poor white people who they equated with blacks. Do you really want to be perpetuating such slanders?

Re. Patrick Henry. I'm not sure how he got drawn into this, but since he is a personal hero and my first son is named after him I will defend his name. He was entirely right for being an anti-federalist. The only thing I disagree with him on was his opposition to nullification. He was a very devout Christian and by all accounts a man of the highest moral character. His Grandson fought for the Confederacy, BTW.

Re Secession. China just passed a law outlawing secession specifically aimed at preventing Taiwan's attempts to gain independence. I dare one "conservative" on this forum to claim that Taiwan does not have a right to declare its independence. If you agree they do, then you must by implication, oppose the new Chinese law against secession. So all you state worshiping Unionist, why is not what is good for the goose good for the gander? Only Chinese people are allowed to secede?

[KC_Conspirator]

You need a picture of "Buddy", that guy that Thompson used to do on KITH.

[Artist]

"Just curious, but what was so horrible about his wife?"

Mary Todd was definitely unstable, but 3 of her four sons died (at ages 3, 11 and 17 if I recall correctly) and her husband was assassinated while she was sitting next to him. Top that off with her only remaining son's attempt to have her declared insane, and you've got plenty of reasons for her to "have issues."

[GOPcapitalist]

When confronted with unpleasant but inescapable logical truths, "union worshippers" and idolaters of all types become easily frustrated and irritable. They compensate for their inability to formulate a rational argument in rebuttal (which is not to say that they could not potential do so or even succeed at it IF they wanted to, but that requires the exertion of greater intellectual effort) by throwing bombs at their opponents. Hence we get attacked with racial slurs, vitriol, and inflamatory praises for the morally indefensible actions of persons such as William T. Sherman drawn up for the purpose of provoking an angry response in the place of discourse. Some of us on FR serve the common master of reason but many, and I dare say a great many, do not.

[Mad Mammoth]

Brace yourself Sparky...your delightful binge of Lincoln-bashing on the grounds of his spiritual emptiness is just about to come off the rails:

There is written evidence that Abraham Lincoln became a Christian in 1839 in Springfield, Illinois during revival services at the Methodist Episcopal Church, under the ministry of James F. Jacquess....Rev. Jacquess described Mr. Lincoln's conversion:

"The church was filled that morning. It was a good sized church, but on that day all the seats were filled. I had chosen for my text the words 'Ye must be born again', and during the course of my sermon I laid particular stress on 'must'. Mr. Lincoln came into the church after the services had commenced, and there being no vacant seats, chairs were put in the altar in front of the pulpit, and Mr. Lincoln and Governor French and his wife sat in the altar during the entire service, Mr. Lincoln on my left and Governor French on my right, and I noticed that Mr. Lincoln appeared to be deeply interested in the sermon. A few days after that Sunday, Mr. Lincoln called on me and informed me that he had been greatly impressed with my remarks on Sunday and that he had come to talk with me further on the matter. I invited him in, and my wife and I talked and prayed with him for hours. Now, I have seen many persons converted; I have seen hundreds brought to Christ, and if ever a person was converted, Abraham Lincoln was converted that night in my house."

"It has seemed to me fit and proper that God should be solemnly, reverently and gratefully acknowledged, as with one heart and one voice, by the whole American people. I do therefore invite my fellow citizens in every part of the United States, and also those who are at sea and those who are sojourning in foreign lands, to set apart and observe the last Thursday of November as a day of Thanksgiving and praise to our beneficent Father who dwelleth in the heavens."
--Abraham Lincoln - October 3, 1863 - Thanksgiving Proclamation

EXECUTIVE MANSION, WASHINGTON, September 4th, 1864.

ELIZA P. GURNEY:

MY ESTEEMED FRIEND, -

I have not forgotten, probably never shall forget, the very impressive occasion when yourself and friends visited me on a Sabbath forenoon two years ago. Nor has your kind letter, written nearly a year later, ever been forgotten. In all it has been your purpose to strengthen my reliance on God. I am much indebted to the good Christian people of the country for their constant prayers and consolations, and to no one of them more than to yourself.. The purposes of the Almighty are perfect, and must prevail, though we erring mortals may fail to accurately perceive them in advance. We hoped for a happy termination of this terrible war long before this; but God knows best, and has ruled otherwise. We shall yet acknowledge His wisdom and our own error therein. Meanwhile we must work earnestly in the best light He gives us, trusting that so working still conduces to the great ends He ordains. Surely He intends some great good to follow this mighty convulsion, which no mortal could make, and no mortal could stay. Your people, the Friends, have had and are having a very great trial. On principle and faith opposed to both war and oppression, they can only practically oppose oppression by war. In this hard dilemma some have chosen one horn and some the other. For those appealing to me on conscientious grounds I have done, and shall do, tile best I could and can, in my own conscience, under my oath to the law. That you believe this I doubt not, and, believing it, I shall still receive for our country and myself your earnest prayers to our Father in heaven.

Your sincere friend,

A. Lincoln.

Meanwhile, back at General Lee's Tent HQ...
"You on the other hand have operated from the single unwavering yet illogical premise that Lincoln must be in heaven because...well...he's Lincoln and you said so!"

BZZZZT!! Wrong answer Norton.

My premise is based upon my belief that I am a better judge of Lincoln's character than you are, because I do not have an old Confederate-age axe to grind, as do you, plus I read of Lincoln's conversion to Christianity probably long before you ever posted your first hate-Lincoln screed.

Again - Happy New Year.

[Mad Mammoth]

Now you did it Sparky. FYI, I was born below the Mason Dixon line and I am a proud Son of the South.

So you claim. Real southerners have names for people like you: scalawag.

And you, of course are a "Real Southerner". Or so you claim.

Unlike you, I have been able to put aside the grievances and contentious issues of the past

In other words, you have chosen to neglect/ignore matters of history that you find to be unpleasant or overly complex intrusions upon your simplistic mindset. We have a name for that too: denial.

Who is this "we" Sparky? You got more than one personality running around in there? There is a name for your single-minded pursuit of one specific issue to the exlusion of all others and that is called "fixation".

You must be holding out for reparations pal, otherwise you wouldn't keep talking about all our losses.

Only an illiterate or a liar would offer that statement in response to my comment that "I have no need for payment to redress the grievances committed upon roughly half the geographical area of this country by Abe Lincoln. The million body death toll and destruction he caused can never be replaced by material things thereby making the pursuit of such payment fruitless." I'll let you pick which one you want to be.

Oh by all means, make the pick for me. I trust your Southern Genteel manners to make the correct and proper choice, after all - poor scalawag that I am, I couldn't hope to make the right selection.

Let it go bud, and try to remember that the first request Lincoln made after the surrender of the South was to ask that the band play "Dixie". And that was a sincere and gracious gesture for which he receives little credit. (not that I'm expecting any from you).

In other words "Yeah, I know I killed all your husbands, raped all your wives, and starved all your children but let me make it up to you by playing a song you like and we can call it even!" That's some strange logic you operate around.

Wise up. Even Robert E. Lee, if he were around would tell you to bury that hatchet before it kills you. You have allowed your hate for one man, Abraham Lincoln, consume you and that isn't healthy.

Your only interest in my view, is to bemoan the fact that you can't see the Stars & Bars waving from every flagpole, sip Mint Juleps in the afternoon, and have Rastus ask if you and the missus would like to take a carriage ride around to the Abe Lincoln Municipal Garbage Dump where you can drop off your recyclables.

Typical needless invective from the dishonest scalawag. Rather than engaging in a factual conversation, you take to slandering your opponent with false accusations of sympathy for slavery. In reality you have long ago forfeited your right to assert a moral position on slavery by wantonly tolerating and excusing murderous crimes against humanity by Lincoln as if they were of no consequence or wrong. You might as well be Joe Stalin telling Hitler to "stop the genocide."

Damn man, I've been called a scalawag, illiterate (or a liar), accused of accusing someone of having "sympathy for slavery" and Joe Stalin all in one foaming-at-the-mouth post. I haven't had this much fun since I slipped a whoopee cushion under former Senator Charles "Mac" Mathias of Maryland (R-RINO) and watched him go completely stone-cold nutz (during a visit by the good Senator to my high school).

Keep them hits comin' GOPcap, you're on a roll now.

Regards,

The Mad Illiterate, Lying, Scalawag, Stalinist Mammoth (at your service)

[Mad Mammoth]

...the morally indefensible actions of persons such as William T. Sherman drawn up for the purpose of provoking an angry response in the place of discourse.

Actually, I thought XJarhead's snappy comeback about "General Sherman, white trash pickup on aisle 5" was quite the kneeslapper.

You don't laugh a whole lot anymore, now do you?