Replies

"Why would you think Americans would be so much more depraved than the rest of the world?"

Think? History says we're capable. And, that 13.2% was when marijuana was illegal.

"Things have changed since then, and people are a lot smarter about drugs."

Make the argument when it suits you, TKDietz. You're flexible. Need I remind you that not too long ago you were posting that drug use was increasing?

"As for your comment about half the people who will try ... right now only about 30% of those who report past month use are under 21 ..."

Let's go back to Alaska. Legalize marijuana for adults (in a restrictive manner, to boot) and teen use is double. That 30% becomes 60%. I used a conservative 50%. It's possible, is my point.

"The biggest part of these people are 18 through 20 ..."

Currently. Why do you insist that percentage would remain after legalization? Some older teens, knowing marijuana is legal in a year or two, may wait rather than getting in trouble. Use among 14 to 16-year-olds may explode.

But, for sake of argument, let's go with your numbers. That means the vast majority of those arrested are 18 to 20, yes? Almost all, if you're to be believed. And we both agree that they are not "a bunch of little kids".

My question. How long before there comes the cry (from public defenders like you) to lower the legal marijuana age to 18? That would drastically reduce ..., well, that would drastically reduce what you're trying to drastically reduce today, now wouldn't it?

"I don't want those drugs to be legalized.

YOU don't want. Why am I not reassured?

Legalizing marijuana will make it that much easier to legalize the other soft drugs, whether you want that or not. Similar arguments can be made for those drugs that are/were made for marijuana.

So, to summarize. We legalize marijuana for those 21 and older, followed some time later by reducing the age to 18.

Marijuana use increases, teen use doubles. More are introduced to drugs at an earlier age.

Now, other soft drugs are legalized for 18-year-olds. Use of those drugs increases.

And for what? What have we gained by legalizing these drugs to 18-year-olds?

Besides the obvious -- making your job easier.

"Think? History says we're capable. And, that 13.2% was when marijuana was illegal."

So what, that was a whole different time with a different dynamic at work. Things have changed since then. And I'll bring it up again, you haven't seen use going up to 20% or 25% or more in places like Holland where they sell marijuana in shops. It hasn't ever gone anywhere close to that. It's never been anywhere close to that in any of the countries that keep this kind of data. What makes you think that Dutch people or others in places with much less restrictive marijuana laws are so much better able to control themselves when it comes to marijuana than we "weak" Americans?

"Make the argument when it suits you, TKDietz. You're flexible. Need I remind you that not too long ago you were posting that drug use was increasing?"

It has gone up some. That's what it does. It goes up and down with the times. It will always do a little fluctuating. What I was pointing out to you before was that it even goes up when the drug war is cranked up several notches. We can seize more pot and lock up more people than ever but if it's going to go up, it's going to go up. If it's going to go down, it's going to go down. The government has little control over that.

"Let's go back to Alaska. Legalize marijuana for adults (in a restrictive manner, to boot) and teen use is double. That 30% becomes 60%. I used a conservative 50%. It's possible, is my point."

You say teen use doubled based on some survey the University of Alaska did once and compared with SAMHSA's numbers. The survey isn't published anywhere where any one can find it. We have no way of knowing how many people where surveyed, the questions asked, or methods used for collecting the data. We also don't know what the numbers for teen use before and after the survey.

I don't believe that teen use doubled in Alaska. You don't have any proof that it doubled.

"Currently. Why do you insist that percentage would remain after legalization?"

Because it's only going to be legal for adults and we're still going to encourage teens not to use it and punish them if they do, just like we do now. At least where I live, we are much harder on teens than we are adults for marijuana possession, except that they aren't really fined and they don't get left with a criminal record that stays with them through their adult lives. Lot's of them do get sent away to a 45 day treatment program though, and they are put on restrictive probation where they are drug tested. They have to perform community service, make it to school with no unexcused absences, tardies, or disciplinary referrals, and their case goes on and on until they have a couple of good reports at review hearings. Bad reports get them juvi hall or get them sent off for six months to a year at some facility somewhere half way across the state. This wouldn't all just stop happening if marijuana was legalized for adults.

The ratio of young pot smokers to old is going to keep shifting to older people, whether marijuana is legalized or not. The reason for this is simple, a higher and higher percentage of older people are those who came of age after marijuana became popular. Over 50% of those born from about the mid 1950's on have at least tried it according to government statistics. Many born before that have also tried it but the percentage of those who have tried it drops off sharply as we start going back in the years to people born much before that. Hardly any of those born in the 1920's and 1930's or before have ever tried it, and the fact is that each year more and more of these people pass on. Certainly not all of the people who have tried marijuana still smoke it. Only a small percentage do. Nevertheless this causes the percentage of persons over 21 who smoke marijuana to grow each year and tilts the ratio of young to old marijuana smokers toward older people.

"But, for sake of argument, let's go with your numbers. That means the vast majority of those arrested are 18 to 20, yes? Almost all, if you're to be believed."

I didn't say anything about arrests. I don't know what the arrest numbers are. I was only talking about use numbers. If you don't believe me on the use numbers, simply look at the link breaking down marijuana use by detailed age categories I'm going to provide you and do the math yourself.

See table 1.2A: http://www.oas.samhsa.gov/nhsda/2k3tabs/PDF/Sect1peTabs19to27.pdf

"My question. How long before there comes the cry (from public defenders like you) to lower the legal marijuana age to 18?"

So what if people "cry?" A lot of people want alcohol to be legal for 18 year olds but it isn't happening. And who listens to public defenders anyway? Yea, we public defenders are a powerful force to be reckoned with in the political arena.

"YOU don't want. Why am I not reassured?"

Who cares?

"Legalizing marijuana will make it that much easier to legalize the other soft drugs, whether you want that or not. Similar arguments can be made for those drugs that are/were made for marijuana."

So you think drugs like LSD, ketamine, GHB, and that sort of thing are soft drugs? That puts you in the distinct minority. These drugs are much more dangerous than marijuana. Marijuana doesn't make you lose control of yourself. Marijuana is not addictive like some of the drugs you call soft drugs. Some of these drugs are much riskier for the user and innocent people who might come in contact with people using these drugs. And unlike marijuana, we don't already have millions and millions of people using them regularly and even more millions and millions using them occasionally. Marijuana is already a very common drug, easily available everywhere. These other drugs are not even close to being as available everywhere as marijuana. Making them legal would change that.

I still do not believe that simple possession of these or any other "recreational" drugs should be a felony though. Shoot, huffing paint isn't a felony anywhere I know of but it's much worse than most any other drug out there. Felonies should be reserved for much more serious crimes where people are causing serious harms to others or putting others at serious risk. At a minimum it shouldn't be a felony the first time or two someone gets caught with one of these other drugs. There are plenty of sanctions available for misdemeanors that would act as just as much a deterrent as a felony would, and we wouldn't have so many people out there with criminal records that can really make it hard for them to get ahead in this world just because they went through a wild partying stage in their lives and happened to be unlucky enough to get caught with an unsanctioned drug. An awful lot of decent, productive citizens have fooled around with drugs at one point in their lives.

I have one more comment on Alaska. The survey you talk about was one done by the University of Alaska that was compared to SAMHSA's national numbers. According to SAMHSA, in 1979 14.2% of people 12 to 17 reported past month use of marijuana. In 1988, the year of the University of Alaska survey, SAMHSA reported that 5.4% of those 12 to 17 were past month marijuana users. If it is true (I doubt it) that teen use in Alaska was double the national average, it was 10.8%. This is considerably less than nationwide use by 12 to 17 year olds in 1979. In fact, SAMHSA's numbers for 1985 showed that 10.2% of 12 to 17 year olds smoked pot in the month preceding the 1985 survey. So marijuana use by 12 to 17 year olds nationwide dropped by about half in three years. It could be that Alaska was just a little behind the times. In 1999, nine years after the law change, 10.4% of Alaskans 12 through 17 reported past month marijuana use. By 2002, 9.44% of Alaskans 12 through 17 reported past month use of marijuana, compared to the national average of 8.17%. That's not exactly a huge drop from the 1988 use numbers for people of that demographic. (I know I'm comparing SAMHSA's old numbers with their new ones but if you can compare some college survey with SAMHSA's numbers you've got to give me a little leeway on this.) It doesn't appear that the law change in 1990 brought about any remarkable reduction in marijuana use by teens in Alaska.

See Table 3 for SAMHSA's national past month marijuana statistics from 1979: http://www.whitehousedrugpolicy.gov/publications/factsht/druguse/#table3

See Table 3b for SAMHSA's 1999 state by state past month marijuana use statistics: http://www.oas.samhsa.gov/NHSDA/99StateTabs/tables2.htm#3b

See Table A.2 for the 2002 numbers: http://www.oas.samhsa.gov/2k2State/html/appA.htm#taba.2