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To: dnandell
Wasn't a politician recently arrested in your beloved country for simply saying something he believed?

No, a fascist was arrested for incitement to racial hatred, a crime which predates the whole P.C. era by 30-40 years, and which by definition can have nothing to do with Islam.

They might still celebrate Christmas in the UK, but in 20 years the UK will be a Muslim country, so enjoy it whilst it lasts.

We certainly do celebrate Christmas, along with school prayers, state-funded church schools (whose numbers are actually increasing), and much else. We certainly will enjoy this lack of state-sponsered attacks on religion, and what's more it will last.

but don't you think monarchy is a little outdated? I just don't get the whole King/Queen crap

Don't you think republics are outdated? They have been shown to be unstable throughout history. The only republics I can think of which have any history behind them are San Marino and Switzerland, all others are either incredibly young or have fallen.

British freedoms rest on our Monarchy, that is why we are free without silly pieces of paper to wave around (which can then be used to oppress religion in schools). It is particualy ironic to talk about this today, as it is the anniversary of Oliver Cromwell becoming Lord Protector (i.e., military dictator) during our one period of oppression which coincides with our one period of republicanism.

I realise that you Americans haven't quite got over loosing the Monarchy, and so have to chase around following everything to do with our Royal family. Maybe once your country passes adolescence you'll understand all of this.

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm also a great fan of the U.S.-U.K. alliance; our two countries have been at their best when fighting together - against Nazis, against Communism, and against Terror, long may it continue.
56 posted on 12/16/2004 9:52:33 AM PST by PiersGaveston (Poker anyone?)
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To: PiersGaveston
that is why we are free

Really now? Try selling bananas by the pound at the local market. See how free you are.

"Queen obeys Europe and adopts metric rule"
The Queen has been told that the Sandringham Estate must stop selling wood in imperial measures within two weeks or trading standards officers will prosecute. The Sandringham sawmill, on the Queen's Norfolk estate, has been selling oak and teak timber in feet and inches rather than metres, which is a criminal offence under EC metrication laws.
The Daily Telegraph, 20 August 2001, page 5

61 posted on 12/16/2004 10:02:19 AM PST by FreedomCalls (It's the "Statue of Liberty," not the "Statue of Security.")
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To: PiersGaveston
during our one period of oppression

One period? Ask the Irish about that. They may differ.

63 posted on 12/16/2004 10:04:50 AM PST by FreedomCalls (It's the "Statue of Liberty," not the "Statue of Security.")
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To: PiersGaveston

Whoe decides he was a facist? Note, I'm not defending him. But who exactly has the power to decide what constitutes hate speech? Parliament? Very dangerous subject to deal with, deciding what is and isn't hate speech.

You might not have state sponsored attacks on religion, however your country sure appears to be losing it's traditional Christian faith rather quickly. Your Church of England appears rather enemic. I won't get into the fact that the Church of England is headed by a monarch.

As if republics have been tried very often throughout history. I believe Rome was at it's greatest when it was a republic. Rome collapsed during the period it was a monarchy/empire. So did China, Germany, Russia, British Empire, etc. It scares me to think your freedoms rest on your monarchy. Your monarchy is pretty powerless. The power in Britian resides in Parliament, no?

Us Americans never "lost" the monarchy. We overthrew it, got rid of it. I don't really think too many people give a hoot about the life and times of your royalty.

It's really too bad Britian decided to become a socialist state after WWII. I think the heritage of the British empire has been a good thing. It's too bad your navy doesn't rule the waves any longer.

Thank God for the U.S. Navy though!

Later


65 posted on 12/16/2004 10:06:36 AM PST by dnandell
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To: PiersGaveston
'No Christian symbols at Christmas'
Red Cross stores bar religious decor fearing it might be offensive

Fearing they might offend someone, Red Cross stores in Britain have taken the Christian out of Christmas this year, banning any display of overtly religious decorations.

84 posted on 12/16/2004 10:58:24 AM PST by FreedomCalls (It's the "Statue of Liberty," not the "Statue of Security.")
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To: PiersGaveston

TAKING THE KISS OUT OF CHRISTMAS

By Iain S Bruce
Are you planning a politically correct festive season? Well that’s the mistletoe out for a start ... oh, and no carol singers, or Nativity plays. In fact, maybe you should just forget about Jesus Christ as well, in case you hurt someone’s feelings

Nativity plays are banned, carol singing has been outlawed and kissing under the mistletoe is strictly off-limits: welcome to a 21st-century Christmas. If you wrap up warm, take plenty of cheer and have a good enough solicitor, you might even make it through New Year.

’Tis the week before Christmas, and all through the nation not a creature is stirring – unless you count lawyers, ambulance cha sers and the occasional non-denominational mouse. It is supposed to be the season of festive tidings and manifest delight, yet slowly but surely the joy is being sucked out of the national holiday as Nativity plays find themselves forbidden lest they cause sectarian offence, roving groups of carollers are hastily dispersed and children discover that it is no longer safe to sit on Santa’s knee.

Look at the evidence: last week the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents and the STUC joined forces to warn organisations of an increasing array of Yuletide dangers. Pointing out that employers are potentially liable for injuries inflicted after falling off office desks, food poisoning caused by a dodgy buffet and even any damages resulting when enthusiastic employees’ attempts at anatomical photography result in shattered photocopier glass and punctured posteriors, the office bash is identified as an accident waiting to happen. Their guidelines even suggested that it might be best to leave out the mistletoe due to an increased risk of sexual harassment claims.

Various shopping centres have banned carol singers on the pretext of their being a fire hazard.

The British Red Cross decided last year to ban Advent calendars from its offices.

It seems like a world gone insane … and much of the madness has been blamed on the growing power of the political correctness lobby. It should come as no surprise then, that the red-top papers have broken into a vocal campaign to save Christmas from these soulless manifestations.

Railing against the bureaucratic Scrooges hell-bent on banning light displays, carols, cards and other traditional festive pleasures, at first glance the outrage dripping from Britain’s super soaraway tab loids seems like an understandable response to what appears to be an indiscriminate attack upon our most cherished Yuletide rites. Taking care not to trample over cultural sensibilities is only right and proper, but when that leads to the emasculation of a treasured public holiday the reaction has surely gone too far.

“A politically correct agenda is seeping into the corridors of power and it has Christmas in its sights,” says sociologist Francis Black. “A movement which began as a legitimate effort to pay multiculturalism due respect is stampeding out of control, and if it keeps on running it’s only a matter of time before possession of a turkey dinner with all the trimmings becomes a criminal offence.

“Cultural sensitivity has become a bureaucratic obsession, with the fear of causing unintentional insult becoming so strong that it has driven the powers-that-be beyond the edge of reason, plunging officialdom into an apparently senseless attack upon even the most innocent traditions.”

It seems ridiculous and almost certainly is, but the pro-traditional Christmas lobby points to a feast of examples of the liberal orthodoxy’s assault upon the Yuletide customs we once held so dear. Terrified that the arcane rites of an overtly Christian festival might offend citizens ascribing to the Muslim, Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist or even Jedi creeds, councils, schools and offices nationwide are erring on the side of caution and dissociating themselves from the annual jamboree by steering clear of potentially propagandist Nativity scenes in primary schools, driving hymn-singing carollers from high streets and banning baubles from the nation’s malls. Even the evangelistic Tony Blair is playing it safe by issuing an official greetings card that omits the C word and offers only best wishes for the new year.

Irrespective of colour, creed, sexual orientation or shoe size, just about everybody likes Christmas, and most rational beings would accept that the annual displays of wooden acting and childlike choreography perpetrated by groups of five-year-olds wearing tea towels on their heads could offend only the most committed theatrical critics, while even evangelical atheists struggle to condemn the once-a-year hymn-singers lustily tramping the streets in the aid of their chosen charitable cause.

These gentle rituals represent one of our society’s few remaining cultural rallying points, and it is easy to understand why The Sun’s decision to launch its own Save Our Christmas campaign last week has been met with widespread approval.

“Say what you like about the tabloid press, but they are past masters at tuning in to the public mood,” says Black. “There is clearly a growing belief that politically correct do-gooders and mindless jobsworths are hell-bent on giving Santa the sack.”

The arguments seem so sound that at first glance the assault upon Christmas appears to be an open and shut case, but in reality the hack pack is barking up the wrong chimney. While the expanding list of Scrooge-like managerial attempts to stifle our seasonal whoopee might at first glance indicate that the tabloids have got this one spot on, closer investigation reveals that rather than being the product of PC fundamentalism, the soul-sucking clampdown is in fact a symptom of an increasingly litigious society where even the most sacred of customs can leave you exposed to civil suits, financial devastation and a humiliating appearance in court.

“There may be an element of political correctness gone wild here, but in truth the situation owes more to the increasing risk of being sued for practically everything we do,” says Stuart Neilson, an employment law and litigation specialist at legal outfit McGrigors.

“Many public bodies and businesses feel that they cannot take chances, and while 99% of people might think that objecting to a Christmas store display is ridiculous, the 1% who are prepared to take legal action represent a danger no organisation can afford to ignore.”

Take the case of John Smith (not his real name), a senior manager in the public sector. Not long ago his own department found itself accused of blinkered Scroogery after a ban on Christmas decorations in its offices, coupled with the decision not to allow the creation of a Nativity scene at one public facility, awoke outrage from clients consumed by the festive spirit. His vocal critics claimed this was a ridiculous step too far – and he completely agreed, but still believes that in the end the right decision was made.

“Nobody at the meeting wanted to ban the Nativity scene, but our hands were completely tied. We have a policy against the display of any religious objects in our premises, and, unfortunately, making an exception for Christmas could have been interpreted as an official bias towards Christianity and would certainly have left us wide open to prosecution,” he says. “It only takes one legal suit to turn that kind of situation into an expensive and time-consuming nightmare, and no matter how trivial it might have seemed we were bound by our duty to protect the public interest and avoid the risk.”

However, the Christian resonance in the festive season is a side issue for many, with the rising tide of consumerism, days off work and guilt-free partying turning it into little more than an opportunity for widespread hoo-ha, a fact bluntly illustrated when Madame Tussauds waxworks museum last week unveiled a Nativity featuring Posh and Becks.

For many it is a time of celebration, regardless of their own beliefs. “I don’t believe any Muslims living in Britain would really object to Christmas, and all the people I know love it just as much as everyone else. It’s not as if you have to embrace the whole religious message to enjoy the spirit of the season,” says Abir Mohammed, a Glaswegian student. “Saying it should stop would be like telling us not to have relatives round for Ramadan because it might offend our Christian neighbours. It’s ridiculous.”

Indeed, while the focus has been on the question of religious sensitivities, the real dangers that could lead to the quashing of Christmas are to be found in factories, shops and offices across the land. Deemed liable for events that unfold not only in their premises but also at official gatherings outside office hours, employers are exposed to a greater range of risks than ever before. Forced to consider the legal implications of every move they make, they realise that even the simplest annual rites have become a veritable minefield that has transformed the annual Christmas party from a welcome knees-up to a potential corporate disaster.

As for banning mistletoe, the STUC admits that its suggestion was a little bit tongue-in-cheek. “But that’s only because we needed to attract attention to what amounts to an extremely serious problem,” says STUC spokesman Dave Watson. “Even the most innocent blunders or badly considered jokes expose you to risk of prosecution, and while thinking about that might dampen the party atmosphere a little, it’s nothing compared with what could happen if events go wrong.”

Christmas might have sprung from firm theological roots, and a return to a more measured approach is not impossible, but today’s complex legal infrastructure means that only the brave would be prepared to even try.

“The nub of the problem here is that while the spirit of the law is all about tolerance, the letter of the law is what will be applied,” says Neilson. “It is extremely difficult to reconcile the two, and with so many grey areas and potential snares it is hardly surprising that many companies are choosing to play safe and ignore Christmas altogether.”

12 December 2004


85 posted on 12/16/2004 11:00:48 AM PST by FreedomCalls (It's the "Statue of Liberty," not the "Statue of Security.")
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To: PiersGaveston
British freedoms rest on our Monarchy, that is why we are free without silly pieces of paper to wave around

When you can carry rifles and pistols around, I'll believe the part about freedom Brit. Till then you are subjects.

137 posted on 12/16/2004 3:36:49 PM PST by Centurion2000 (Truth, Justice and the Texan Way)
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