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To: PeterFinn
I prefer freedom too. I have no love for socialist societies like Stalin's or Mao's. I do think some small scale experiments in socialism have had some success--the Israeli kibbutz, the Oneida community, perhaps St-Simon's group, the early Christians described in the book of Acts. But these were small scale, voluntary, and did not involve forcing anyone to participate. Large scale socialist societies, especially those inspired by Lenin and his notion of a revolutionary vanguard, have been disasters. I am not eager to see that tried here.

Still, I do believe the point that John Stuart Mill made in his essay "On Liberty" is worth making here. We must all accept as the price of living in society that our liberties are limited when not limiting them would lead others to be harmed. That is consistent with leaving people free to engage in what Mill calls 'experiments in living' like the communes you mention.
40 posted on 12/17/2004 9:40:29 AM PST by rogerv
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To: rogerv

We're on the same page here.

A good definition of rights is that a right is something you can practice all on your own without the action or interference of any other individual. If the practice of your right requires an action of any kind by another individual then it is not a right.

Speaking is a right. Praying is a right. Controlling one's own resources is a right (so long as it is not to the detriment of someone else). Having children is a unique right shared between two people. Self-preservation is a right and the access to the means of self preservation is also a right as self-preservation cannot be practiced without the means to do so.

What is not a right?

Anything that requires the actions of others is not a right as someone else must ultimately be compelled to perform an action to fulfill your 'right'.

Education is not a right.
Medical care is not a right.
Social Security is not a right.
Protection from crime is not a right.
Protection from foreign invasion is not a right.
Protection from disaster is not a right.
Access to clean water and healthy food is not a right.

What else is not a right?

You don't have a right to pollute someone else's water.
You don't have a right to pollute their air.
You don't have a right to play loud music where other people must suffer it.
You don't have a right to impose your will on other people.

What about conflicting rights?

You have a right to keep and bear arms.
I have a right to shoot you if you threaten me with them.

You have a right to do what you want on your property.
I have a right to be free of your infringement of my property by your actions on your property.

You have a right to speak.
I don't have to listen.

You have a right to travel.
But not across my property.

You have a right to be a Communist.
I have a right not to be.

Ultimately the understanding is that rights are inherent in individuals and are inseparable from their persons regardless of what laws are passed.

"The People" empowered government and therefore are the wellspring of rights and laws themselves. Government is but an instrument of their collective Will.

You can pass a law forbidding self-defense, but my right to self-defense does not cease to exist in my person.

You can pass a law forbidding free-speech, but my right to free-speech does not cease to exist in my person.

You can pass a law forbidding instruments of self-defense (guns, swords, etc.), but my right to those instruments does not cease to exist in my person.

If you come up with a society that respects rights and mandates no imposition on others, you will have my rapt attention.


41 posted on 12/17/2004 10:27:01 AM PST by PeterFinn (The NAACP can have a recount of the Ohio vote if I can have a recount of the Million Man March.)
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