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Rights, rights, and rights (Guns at the workplace)
Freedom Sight ^ | December 11, 2004 | Jed S. Baer

Posted on 12/16/2004 6:17:56 AM PST by Luis Gonzalez

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To: Jeff Head

As a passionate advocate of both Second Amendment rights and property rights, I'd be interested to know what your take on this article is.


141 posted on 12/17/2004 9:52:07 AM PST by Luis Gonzalez (Some people see the world as they would want it to be, effective people see the world as it is.)
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To: Luis Gonzalez

The company isn't the one who gets buried.


142 posted on 12/17/2004 9:52:15 AM PST by Modok
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To: dirtboy
dirtboy wrote:
I've protested many times for gun rights, bucko.




jonestown:
Yes. - Your efforts on this thread to defend employees gun rights are noted.




Do you ever get out and hit the streets for gun rights? Get letters published in papers to counter anti-gun editorials? Write your congresscritters? Nah, because I disagree with you on this one specific issue, because other fundamental rights are in play, I'm an anti-gun bigot.
138 dirtboy




I didn't say you were a bigot. I think you've been misguided by the real anti-gun crowds insidious efforts to claim that property rights can trump gun rights.
And yes, I've fought my entire life for gun rights, starting with the attack on them right after the JFK assassination. -- You could see it coming in '64, and I said so as loud as I could. -- I still am.
143 posted on 12/17/2004 9:54:03 AM PST by jonestown ( JONESTOWN, TX http://www.tsha.utexas.edu)
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To: Modok

They are the ones who get sued by the ones doing the burying.

Will you promote legislation releasing employers from any and all liability for work place shootings to stand side-by-side with legislation forcing employers to allow guns on their property?


144 posted on 12/17/2004 9:55:19 AM PST by Luis Gonzalez (Some people see the world as they would want it to be, effective people see the world as it is.)
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To: dirtboy
" freedom of association and contracts."

There's more to it than just consideration of free assn. and contracts. The Free assn element is legit, if the business states that it is gun owners they are dicriminating against.

Firearms that remain in the vehicle are not a legitimate jurisdiction for the employer, because they are otherwise hidden and can only be observed if the the disclosure is forced. Also, by unreasonable restrictions, unrelated to the workplace, that infringe on the employee's offsite activities are not allowed. This is just a parking lot remember. The firearm is only in use if it comes out of the car.

Before CCW, these rules didn't exist and folks had just as many guns in their cars before, as after. Note the catch from the recent forced searches: active hunters, target shooters and most remarkable-tobacco.

IMO, they've decided to do this to take the law into their own hands, because that's really what they have done. They are also interested in generating bogus statistics for the VPC, join together, and the other "peace" at all cost leftists, and support them.

In short, if they want to claim free assn., then let them claim that, not the bogus claim of property right.

145 posted on 12/17/2004 9:56:39 AM PST by spunkets
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To: Luis Gonzalez

The only time an employer should have a liability for workplace shootings is if they have a policy which prohibits firearms in the workplace, or if the employer is the one who commits the crime.


146 posted on 12/17/2004 10:00:01 AM PST by Modok
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To: libstripper
"In other words, it is objectively, scientifically provable that an employer reduces its risk of workplace shootings by at least allowing employees to keep guns in their vehicles."

In other words, it is objectively, scientifically provable that an employer the government reduces its the risk of workplace shootings species becoming extinct by at least allowing employees to keep guns in their vehicles restricting a property owner's right to develop land that acts as a habitat for those species.
Welcome to the EPA...your defense of the government's violation of property rights is greatly appreciated.
147 posted on 12/17/2004 10:01:19 AM PST by Luis Gonzalez (Some people see the world as they would want it to be, effective people see the world as it is.)
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To: Modok

The Oklahoma legislature did not remove liability as they removed the employer's ability to ban guns in the workplace...why not?


148 posted on 12/17/2004 10:03:13 AM PST by Luis Gonzalez (Some people see the world as they would want it to be, effective people see the world as it is.)
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To: spunkets
"Firearms that remain in the vehicle are not a legitimate jurisdiction for the employer."

The right to violate property rights.

"It isn't a crime f you don't get caught."

149 posted on 12/17/2004 10:05:29 AM PST by Luis Gonzalez (Some people see the world as they would want it to be, effective people see the world as it is.)
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To: Luis Gonzalez

They didn't remove the employers ability to ban guns in the workplace, they trimmed it back so people could travel from their homes and work in possession of firearms. Now if they had told the employer they cannot for ban guns from the workplace then the employer should not be liable for the things which occur because of that.


150 posted on 12/17/2004 10:09:36 AM PST by Modok
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To: jimthewiz
We must be on different threads. I am talking Constitution and you are talking concepts and contracts. You, yourself state that they have a right to terminate you if that is part of the employment contract. True, but only if that is part of the employment contract. I never mentioned gun rights. I brought up the issue of the prohibition of unreasonable search and seizure.

And, like I said - the company can reserve the right to search your vehicle if you wish to park it on their property and be employed by them. You can refuse to work for them, or, if you work for them and they request to search your vehicle, you can refuse the search and they can decide if they wish to fire you or not.

The Bill of Rights was meant as a constraint on government - not private organizations. Government can force a search and jail you if you do not assent. An employer can compel a search, but you can disagree and leave and end your employment.

151 posted on 12/17/2004 10:12:46 AM PST by dirtboy (To make a pearl, you must first irritate an oyster)
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To: jimthewiz
Just what Constitutional or other rights does private property carry?

Amazing. Ever read the section about the right to be secure in one's effects? Or the prohibitions about government taking of property without due compensation?

Nah, there aren't any Constitutional property rights /sarcasm.

Property rights are just as vital as rights to self-defense in a free, prosperous society. No one forces you to work at a given company. And no one forces you to shop at a business. If a company wants to be a complete bunch of idiots and ban weapons on their property, that is their perogative. Would you demand the right to carry a weapon onto your neighbor's property against his will?

152 posted on 12/17/2004 10:16:02 AM PST by dirtboy (To make a pearl, you must first irritate an oyster)
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To: jimthewiz
The government does not allow you to bring fruit, vegetables, and other plant life into the country from other countries when you're returning from overseas.

The have dogs check out your luggage, and require you to open any piece that a dog gets a "hit" on. The apple that you saved from the continental breakfast at Atlantis in Nassau just in case you get hungry later gets confiscated.

Unreasonable search and seizure, or law enforcement?

By the way...I have easements both next to my house, and behind my house, they are not my property, and never were my property; easements are not private property.

"Public access to public beaches over private property is not only required, but must be provided at the expense of the property owner in most cases."

I've lived nearly my entire life within minutes of some of the nation's most famous beaches, and that's not the case at all.

153 posted on 12/17/2004 10:21:48 AM PST by Luis Gonzalez (Some people see the world as they would want it to be, effective people see the world as it is.)
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To: Modok

The parking lot attached to the building where you work IS the workplace.

If you trip and fall on the parking lot, you would sue for workman's compensation.

The legislature removed the employer's right to set policy, but did not remove their liability.

By the way, your right to drive to and from work with a loaded gun in your car was never impaired by the employer's policy of not allowing guns in their parking lot, you simply had to park elsewhere.

But these guys in Oklahoma, apparently too fat and lazy to walk an additional thirty yards in defense of their Second Amendment rights, and being under the false impression that they have a right to park on the employer's property, opted to use the force of government to get legal entitlement to set policy on other people's property.

Similar behavior is exhibited by leftist tree huggers and assorted environmentalist nutjobs.


154 posted on 12/17/2004 10:29:11 AM PST by Luis Gonzalez (Some people see the world as they would want it to be, effective people see the world as it is.)
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To: Luis Gonzalez
"The parking lot attached to the building where you work IS the workplace. "

No, it's parking lot.

155 posted on 12/17/2004 10:33:47 AM PST by spunkets
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To: Luis Gonzalez

What were the alternative areas to park in the OK case?


156 posted on 12/17/2004 10:39:41 AM PST by Modok
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To: spunkets

Who owns it?

It's the workplace, otherwise, why would you be bitching about it?


157 posted on 12/17/2004 10:53:23 AM PST by Luis Gonzalez (Some people see the world as they would want it to be, effective people see the world as it is.)
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To: Luis Gonzalez

"Is this the Weyerhauser HR department?"

"Yes, what can I do for you?"

"A number of your employees have been parking on the edge of my field and walking to work. I stopped one the other day and they said they were doing it because they can't leave their guns in their cars in the parking lot. I don't want people parking in my field."

Memo to employees that afternoon, " It as come to our attention that some employees have been parking off of plant property. If you drive to work you are expected to park your vehicle in the designated parking area located... Failure to comply with this policy will be met with disciplinary action up to and including termination."

It's about guns. It's green eggs and ham and they don' like them. They don't like them in cars in the parking lot, they don't like the employees having guns between the job and home, they don't want the employees to have guns in their homes homes.


158 posted on 12/17/2004 10:56:20 AM PST by Modok
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To: Modok
"Sticky post button"

LOL.. what thread have you been looking at!?

159 posted on 12/17/2004 10:59:21 AM PST by phasma proeliator (It's not always being fast or even accurate that counts... it's being willing.)
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To: Luis Gonzalez
"It's the workplace, otherwise, why would you be bitching about it?"

It's a parking lot.

"Who owns it?"

God. It's on loan, free of charge. He's also given out his rules, that amount to, play nice. He'll probably reward these folks with their own stinking, but peaceful little parking lot the can rule over for all eternity. Peaceful to enjoy all by themselves.

160 posted on 12/17/2004 10:59:54 AM PST by spunkets
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