Posted on 12/13/2004 7:42:25 AM PST by Gritty
Well I am a scientist first. Skepticism is a natural component of science, however I take except when people or groups use science to propogate their belief or disbelief by telling half-truth and misleading people with carefully constructed semantics. That fact that I understand the vague terminology used, I find this completely unconvincing. All it does is point to the development of new theories and other tenents that attempt fill in the gaps of that Darwinian evolution alone does not answer.
This kind of thread used to? This kind of thread is becoming a daily occurrence on FR.
> Do you believe that reasonable people can disagree?
On some things, yes. Reasonable people can disagree on the specifics of biology, but the fact of evolution is quite clear. To me, denying evolution is akin to denying continental drift or the motions of the planets.
If I was a True Red Blooded Conservative who just happened to believe in the Hollow Earth and regular visitations from the Ascended Masters in UFO's, would you just shrug it off as something reasonable people could disagree about?
> Unfortunately, when one talks of such things as "irreducible complexity" or "evolution of information" around the hard core Darwinists, one generally hears the sound of silence.
That's because they are complex issues. But they have largely been answered.
> it is totally illogical to use ID tools to prove that ID doesn't exist.
"ID tools?"
The operative word in our dialogue being "reasonable". The definition of reason would then apply. And there is no quantifiable definition of reason.
Therefore, it would seem that much leeway must be given, if one is to be a 'reasonable' person.
Now that was nice. You have encapsulated it well, FB.
> I don't buy the "Trust Me" answers from the Darwinists.
Then don't buy that answer. Buy the actual answers. They are out there, and are not that hard to find.
The fact that someone has to sit and ponder a while when asked a "hey, what about this" with regards to a theory does not mean that the theory is flawed or broken. It just means that it is complex, and that not everything has been thought of yet. "Irreducible Complexity" is as much a fundamental problem for evolution as the "Dean Drive" was to Newtonian physics.
> This necessarily casts a pro-ID taint on any and all experiments and observations in the realm of evolutionary science.
Ah. I get it. The fact that any experiment must be designed by humans (intelligent designers), and thus, no experiment is possible that will convince those who believ ethat all things are thus created by an Intelligent Designer.
Everything has changed since the 60's. The Theory of Evolution became fact since the Liberal Secular Humanists took over. Two thirds of Americans have never fell for it. ...65% said that biblical creation should be part of the curriculum, along with evolution. These Bible-based beliefs about the origins of life are churning American politics.
>The "Hard Sciences" of Academia have drunk the John Kerry Kool-Aid.
Wow... you're starting to pick up the mantle of wacky illucid posting left by... what was his handle? "F_Christian" or some such?
> Two thirds of Americans...
Look into what many Americans believe. It's scary. Americans (Red, Blue, doesn't matter) are almost wholly ignorant of actual science. This is not surprising given the extraordinarily lame nature of the treatment of science in mass media. Someone might be able to tell you chapter and verse about their favorite sport or TV show, but ask them about physics, chemistry, biology or most any other science, and you'll either get silence or sheer hogwash. Hell, look at the supposedly "science" based cable networks: lots of claptrap about parapsychology and UFO's. The motorcycle shows are nice, but they ain't science.
Bubblegum for the mind.
> Perhaps you would be so kind to post some links.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/behe.html
http://www.millerandlevine.com/km/evol/design2/article.html
"Skeptic" magazine has tackled the issue several times.
> When trying to remove ID from the evolutionary picture, Darwinists must remove all impurities also.
Observe the world. Evolution can be seen in the fossil record. No "ID" needed.
> For, after all, if we as finite humans can obtain a certain result using our limited toolset, what makes us think that a much more intelligent agent could not do the same on a far vaster scale?
Uh-huh. Well, this highly hypothetical Intelligent Designer left *abundant* evidence of evolution, so much so that the conclusion seems not only obvious, but *pointed* *out*. So, if you think that this IDer is God, and that evolution is a lie... then you are left with the inescapable conclusion that God is a liar. Personally, I'll take the evidence the world presents.
This is a Leftist tactic if I ever saw one.
I would have you know that a vast majority of those disagreeing with the Theory of Evolution are conservatives. Conservatives, by nature, are more skeptical and concerned with truth. The data is available to all. Reading past the misinterpretation of the Leftist Scientific Academia is actually rather entertaining. I am not a genius, but one thing I have learned is to believe more those who are conservative and have less trouble admitting when they are wrong. This is not so any longer amongst Academic scientists. Their interpretation techniques expose their lack of a concern for seeking truth.
So much of science requires disclaimers because we know and understand so little. Those who refuse to include disclaimers are not to be trusted.
Your skepticism is misdirected. Consider what I have said when you read the next scientific study.
Ping.
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I don't expect you'll get any disagreement on that point.
Just as democrats refuse to acknowledge Bush's win, some evolutionists refuse to give up. It's over, and since evolutionists labeled their hoax "science," it will be decades or even centuries before real science gets its reputation back.
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