Posted on 12/08/2004 6:14:39 AM PST by Pfesser
"Still waiting for your response to #31."
Patience. Some of us work for a living :)
There is no direct evidence that God created the earth 6000 years ago as there is no direct evidence that humans and apes came from a common ancestor. It is only a persons interpretation of the facts we see today that will lead one to adhere more to one belief or the other.
My observation is that it is nice to see students challenging their professors for something I believe has holes in it such as the Theory of Evolution. One day maybe students will not have to worry about towing the party line in the Universities and can just pursue truth without concern for anyones belief system being attacked and suffering retribution by those in authority.
I believe all theories should be allowed in the name of science if a student is attempting to pursue truth. Some teachers hinting that some students "shouldn't teach" because of their scientific conclusions borders on dark-ages thinking if you ask me.
You just described methodist seminaries to a tee!
They don't teach the resurrection, inspiration of scripture, or anything else, either.
This is exactly why I believe that many should re-evaluate and consider the possibility that God created the world through methods of evolution. It is hard to argue that evolution does not exist. However, personally, I find it impossible to successfully argue that God doesn't exist. How can the two co-exist? Well, maybe by God using the process of evolution. That gives a plausible answer without refuting theology or modern science either.
Please point me to the bible verse stating that the earth is 6k years old. The concept of time as we know it may not be the same as time according to God. One day of God's work, as described in Genesis, could actually be 100 million years to us.
Show me the evolutionary link from non-seeing organisms to organisms with eyesight. Show me the fossilized link from ape to man. Show me ANY fossilized link from one genus to another. You really believe your ancestors x 10^-1000 were baboons?
Google for "red shift." Wrong. Google for "Dark Energy." Or go here:
http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20010407/bob14.asp
Best,
Alkhin
adam_az - "I can see that logic is not one of your strong points."
JFK_Lib - Heh, and maybe it isnt one of yours. You are sitting in the midst of a Universe so finely tuned for human habitation that scientists have developed the Anthropic Principle to account for why it is this way. The Weak version asserts that there are 'nearly' an infinite number of universes and we just got lucky. The Strong version says that for a universe to exist, there must be sentient observation.
Neither of the two are quite so clean and straight forward as aknowledging that this is God's Creation as has been the claim of monotheism for millenia.
Just because you take the moment of Creation, slap the title 'Big Bang' on it it does not mean that it is any more explained nor the obvious Divine origin made unnecesary; it is merely avoided like an angry parent.
adam_az - "Doesn't surprise me, based on the historical revisionism you exhibited in another thread earlier this week."
Hah, so ad hominem is what passes for logic to you?
LOL, dont quit your day job.
And where were they? Floating in space? They must have just been floating out there alone in their space suits.
Face it, there's only a few hundred words in Genesis that talk of "creation". That can't possibly be the whole story. Since the Bible isn't a science text, logically it doesn't spend much time explaining to the average Joe how God Evolved Species.
Just like virtually every other part of the Bible where no two church denominations can agree, those few hundred words are interpreted differently by different people.
The hallmark of recent western religious history are the multiple religious groups coming to tolerate each other. But some of them still can't tolerate "science" any more than Islamics can tolerate infidels.
"For clarification: One would have to go out on an Unbiblical limb, to believe both are true."
I disagree, with all due respect, I think all you have to do is treat the texts involved for the ancient attempt at explaining the incomprehensible to the ancient mind.
It is not scientific text, nor is there much attempt to avoid apparent contradicitions within the first two chapters of Genesis.
It is allegory used to convey a deeper spiritual truth, and that is hardly unBiblical at all but treats the Bible with complete respect in an informed sort of way.
Better Truth with nuance than fervent fables.
"There is no direct evidence that God created the earth 6000 years ago "
When I said "no direct evidence" I am referring to a smoking gun that explicitly shows it happened 6000 years ago. I do believe there is evidence for a young earth but to provide direct evidence that it is exactly 6000 years old is another matter. Since I believe in God I view him as an eye witness to our origins and therefore believe in creation. Of course, that part is faith and is separate from science but I also believe science supports a young earth.
Sometimes I feel those who believe in evolutionism have a reaction to creationism in the same way that some who have only listened to CBS and CNN their entire lives react to conservative viewpoints, they view it as uneducated and a bit bizarre.
"The bible did not say....god created Adam the little ape man who morphed into Eve the little ape girl."
Neither does anyone else I have read. The theory goes that once God ensouled whatever form he used to make man, it was no longer that form but was then made into man. So there isnt an ape-man left, just a man.
It is the sould that makes us men and not apes.
The sun is proof of the existence of the god Apollo. See: http://www.wordsources.info/apollo.html
This may pose a problem for those who believe in a 6-day creation, but it also poses an equally insurmountable problem for Darwinists. Rather than showing microevolution between species, the fossil record shows only stasis in species. Species appear fully formed in the fossil record and disappear the same way. This is the rule, not the exception.
You are very right. Creationism is a wedge issue used to force young children to make a final decision whether God exists. Such Creationists insist that this decision must be made in a secular school teaching Evolution and Creationism side-by-side. This will be taught and the decision made away from family and church.
The way to "remove a wedge issue" is to refuse to engage it. On this subject, smart Christians would acknowledge that God has the power to do anything, even create Evolution.
Problem solved.
Churches will then be free to teach about God. And schools will be free to teach about science. And the conflict between them is gone.
For Christians to be embracing "Creationism" is double stupid, because it is the start of that "wedge issue" that certianly is used to take young people away from God.
For the record, I know as much as I can at this point, that God created the Earth, he redeemed man through sending Jesus to die, and be raised again. I think evolution is ridiculous and you have to have as much faith in the theory and man as Christians do in Jesus Christ to believe it.
Yep. The way I see it, if teachers woudl simply teach the scientific method, instead of political issues, there MIGHT be some real discoveries going on.
"I like what you said : tried to explain it myself here : but a lot of creationists just don't listen."
Heh, yeah, been there done that too.
The issue has become so polarized between the Crusading Creationists and the Uber-secular Supremacists that there is little room anymore for common sense.
By observing the underlying presumptions of science, which come from Christian philosophy, and the limits of demonstrability of matters of Faith (hence why it is faith) one might hope to find plenty of room for accomodating science and religion.
But that is the hallmark of the fanatic; he polarizes discussion into a dichotomy, no matter how false, of one camp against the other. It is war he wants followed by conquest and thus the fanatic tolerates no compromise or mutual respect. There is only vanquishment and exile for the opposition and too bad for anyone caught in the middle!
Heh, but Truth will out, Alkhin, Truth will out!
Show me scientific evidence that love exists.
Show me scientific evidence that truth exists.
Show me scientific evidence that beauty exists.
It's impossible to demonstrate that these things exist using the methodology of the natural sciences because the natural sciences are limited to the material. In fact, the scope of the natural sciences is logically determined by philosophy and theology.
In fact, all of these things exist, and all are manifestations of God, who is One, Good, True, Beautiful and Being itself.
"If someone is intellectually honest, they cannot believe in God and evolution. If they do they are simply making up their own religion."
Hmm, I am Catholic, I obviously did not make it up, and yet the Roman Catholic Church allows for belief in both God and biological evolution. So your dichotomy between belief in God and belief in biological evolution is false.
But there is a philosophical viewpoint that has long called for a Godless origin of the Universe and the life found in it. That is obviously incompatible with faith, and all too often secularists use sleight of hand to prove the case for biological evolution and then change the connotation of their use of 'evolution' to refer to philosophical evolution, and thus mean *unguided* evolution.
But evolution does not imply unguidedness, not at all as one poster earlier pointed out, technology evolves around us constantly, but it is all teh product of a guided process, a proiduct of design.
Thanks for the ping!
If someone were intellectually honest, they would acknowledge that the Bible only has a few hundred words about the creation, and that many many many details of HOW God created the universe and life have been left out.
If someone were intellectually honest, they would acknowledge that God has the power to do anything He wants. Including create Evolution.
If someone were intellectually honest, they would acknowledge that there are a great many issues in the Bible that religious scholars do not agree on. Exactly HOW God created the universe is meaningless. The fact that God DID it is the point.
Religious people should drop the Creationism fight because it is a wedge issue that is used to take young people away from God.
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