Posted on 12/07/2004 10:28:22 AM PST by Born Conservative
A couple of points:
The previous D.C. case involved a diplomat from Georgia (the country) who was snockered and killed a little girl. Georgia did the right thing and sent him back to face justice where he offended without immunity.
The present case is a HUGE deal in Romania and in particular Transylvania. I have friends there and everyone knows of the victim (they don't have all that many celebrities) and is disturbed by the appearance of American high-handedness.
An article yesterday (I'll go look for a link) said the Marine blew an .09 on the breath test. In Romania the legal limit is ZERO and having any blood alcohol content creates a presumption of liability in an accident. Everyone there is aware of this very draconian requirement of drivers.
There is some dispute over the blood test. Details I have seen so far have been contradictory.
Romania just had a fairly free and clean election a week ago Saturday. Rummy was there in October scouting potential bases. Romania has troops in Iraq. These are good Christian people who are our allies. Yes, they have problems with corruption but in many ways things are at least heading in the right direction.
The Department of State and the U.S.M.C. need to step up to the plate on this one and quick. This Marine should be treated fairly and should not be punished more harshly because he is American, because he is a Marine, or because his victim is a celebrity. If he is sentenced to jail he should not be mistreated while he is incarcerated.
But it is my opinion that when you are in someone else's country you obey their laws or you face their justice. I see no reason so far why this case is any exception.
Don't drive drunk.
http://www.isn.ethz.ch/news/sw/details.cfm?id=10309
Romania outraged after US Marine kills civilian
ISN SECURITY WATCH (07/12/04) - Romanian prosecutors were expected today to join forces with the US Naval Criminal Investigative Service arriving in Romania to look into the case of a US Marine who allegedly killed a Romanian rock-star in a car accident on Saturday.
The death of 50-year-old Teo Peter - a prominent musician and producer - over the weekend caused a public uproar after the US Marine, identified as 31-year-old US embassy employee Robert Christopher, refused to have his blood tested for alcohol and was spirited out of Romania shortly after the accident occurred.
According to Romanian criminal law, crimes committed by diplomatic personnel or personnel working for the diplomatic corps, do not come under the jurisdiction of the Romanian state, hence the US Marine “had the choice on whether to submit a blood sample or leave Romania prior to the investigation ending”, said Romanian Foreign Ministry spokesman Catalin Ionita.
Romanian media have focused much attention on the story, criticizing the government for allowing the US Marine to avoid either national or international justice, and accusing overtly pro-US authorities of condoning the incident. Media also contrasted the incident with a similar one in 1997, when a Georgian diplomat in the US was stripped of his immunity and tried under US law.
The leading daily Adevarul newspaper wrote that US Ambassador Jack Dyer Crouch had shown the sensitivity “of a cyborg” when expressing his regrets for the incident in interviews over the weekend, while the US in general was likened to Imperial Rome and Nazi Germany “whose soldiers, belonging to a superior race, could have killed with impunity as many natives as they wanted”.
The daily Jurnalul National said “some people are more equal than others when it comes to triggering somebody else’s death”.
The public outrage is being viewed with particular concern given Romania’s strong US sympathies. Long before the arrival on the scene of US President George Bush, it was difficult to find a more willing partner in the region for military campaigns than Romania.
Though Romanian authorities have repeatedly requested that the US Marine be returned to Romania for justice, those requests have so far gone unanswered. In a press release on the Romanian Foreign Ministry website, the Romanian government says it has asked the US authorities to both return the US Marine to Romania and lift his diplomatic immunity.
The media has focused in on what they call the authorities’ “weakness”, recalling that Romania was one of the first countries in August 2002 to sign an agreement with the US granting US citizens immunity from prosecution at the International Criminal Court (ICC). However, that agreement has not been ratified by the Romanian parliament, and as such is not yet applicable to US military serving in Romania.
A recent NATO member state, Romania is earmarked along with Bulgaria to host new US military bases to bring US troops closer to operational theaters in the Middle East. (By Anca Paduraru in Bucharest)
http://www.spacewar.com/2004/041207190449.g6mkzymc.html
Bush urged to order marine suspected in drunk driving death back to Romania
BUCHAREST (AFP) Dec 07, 2004
Romanian Prime Minister Adrian Nastase on Tuesday urged US President George W. Bush to order a US marine to return to Bucharest for questioning in a probe into a drunk driving accident that cost the life of a prominent Romanian rock musician.
"In a letter addressed to Mr. Bush, the Romanian prime minister stressed that the sudden departure for the United States of this marine, a member of the embassy security detail, and his refusal to take a blood alcohol test, sparked outrage in Romanian public opinion," a government statement said.
Nastase also asked that the diplomatic immunity of the marine, Robert Christopher, be lifted "so that he can answer for his actions before Romanian justice."
The Romanian prime minister assured Bush that the US marine would have "legal and correct treatment" in Romania.
Two US prosecutors arrived in Bucharest on Tuesday to take part in the investigation into the causes of the accident in which Teofil Peter was killed before dawn on Saturday when the taxi he was riding in was rammed by a heavy sport-utility vehicle driven, according to media reports, by Christopher.
The 28-year-old taxi driver is said to have sustained serious injuries.
A police breathalyzer test showed the marine had a 0.09 milligram alcohol level in his blood, the Bucharest Daily News reported.
Under Romanian law, people are not allowed to drive after consuming any amount of alcohol.
Reports said the marine refused to take a blood test.
"The results of this investigation will allow us to decide the next step," the embassy said Tuesday, adding that it would keep the public informed of "efforts to clarify the circumstances of this tragic accident."
Peter was a founding member of the rock group Compact, which has produced dozens of hits since it was set up in 1977.
In Washington on Sunday, a spokesman for the US Marine Corps expressed regret over the incident, but refused to disclose any details. "The only thing I can tell is that we are aware of it," said Captain Dan McSweeney. "It's an unfortunate incident."
A new member of the NATO alliance, Romania is trying to forge a close strategic relationship with the United States and has offered the Pentagon a base in Constanta as a possible jumping off point for operations in the Middle East.
All rights reserved. © 2004 Agence France-Presse.
http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/consumer_news/10360298.htm
Posted on Tue, Dec. 07, 2004
Romanians Want Justice for Rocker's Death
LUCIA STANA-SEVEANU
Associated Press
CLUJ, Romania - Hundreds of fans turned out Tuesday in this Transylvanian city for the funeral of a Romanian rock star killed in a car accident involving a U.S. Marine, who has immunity from prosecution and later left the country.
Teofil Peter, a 50-year-old bass player with the popular Romanian band "Compact," died in the crash early Saturday.
Prime Minister Adrian Nastase appealed to President Bush on Tuesday to help bring the Marine to justice by waiving his immunity from prosecution. He added that the Marine's departure from Romania after the accident has caused outrage.
Nastase said the Marine would "have a fair and equal treatment" in Romanian courts.
Three Orthodox priests officiated the funeral in Cluj, 250 miles northwest of Bucharest.
About 300 mourners turned out for Peter's funeral, including 100 long-haired rock fans who came dressed in black on motorcycles. No songs were sung.
"He was a good man, a generous man who had a lot of common sense," said Ovidiu Moldovan, a 49-year-old engineer who was Peter's neighbor in childhood. "We want the Marine to come back to be tried by those who loved Peter," he added.
Romania had asked American authorities to hand over the Marine for questioning. The Marine allegedly failed to yield at an intersection and hit a taxi Friday night in Bucharest, police said. A breath test showed the Marine had been drinking, police said.
Peter had been riding in the taxi's passenger seat and was killed. The driver had minor injuries.
The U.S. ambassador to Romania, Jack Dyer Crouch, attended the funeral and talked to Peter's son.
Romanian authorities did not identify the Marine, but media reports said he was a guard at the embassy.
Foreign Minister Mircea Geoana said Tuesday a team of U.S. prosecutors arrived in Bucharest to work with Romanian investigators.
He said he told the Americans about the "public and political sensitivity of the case," and the need to have the Marine brought to justice.
"There is a common interest of Romania and America to not erode the sympathy capital that America enjoys in Romania," Geoana said.
The State Department said Monday that the United States is cooperating with the Romanians as they conduct their investigation. He said the Marine Corps also is conducting it's own investigation.
"The Romanian government has asked us to waive his immunity and we are reviewing the request," said Adam Ereli, a spokesman for the State Department.
Ereli also expressed condolences on behalf of the U.S. government to Peter's friends and family.
You know only what you read, which may, or may not be factual.
Inasmuch as you are not the commanding officer, or the one making this decision for the United States, what you deem should be done is irrelevant.
As I stated in post # 11 ... "We have miltary laws that cover this, and they will be adhered to."
I appreciate your reply.
If you read my post # 11, you will see that I said ... "We have miltary laws that cover this, and they will be adhered to."
I intimated no dereliction of treaties, diplomatic processes, or denial of anyones rights, including those of Romania.
I was replying to poster crazy man michael, and his comments in post # 4.
I made a note about not condoning DUI.
My point was to drop all diplomatic immunity and make everyone abide by the laws of the host country. If they are a demented country, why have a diplomat there? If they are friendly and sane, we should respect their laws.
Inasmuch as you we are not the commanding officer, or the one making this decision for the United States, what you we deem should be done is irrelevant.
Thanks.
'they always ship the marine home.'
Might want to tell that to the former members of the US mil now prisoners in Naha detention center.
On the basis of the information we've been given, we don't know if the marine was driving drunk, only that he had been drinking alcohol. Do we know the law in Romania? By what standard would the marine be measured? What are the rules of evidence there? Is the accused allowed an attorney? If found guilty, what is the penalty? Would you agree to have a serving member of our armed forces tried and sentenced according to sha'ria law, for instance?
IF drunk driving was the cause of this unfortunate death, then the marine should be held accountable in the United States and punished to the full extent of the law, if guilty. To do otherwise is to set a very dangerous precedent.
Amen. Don't drive if you drink - ANYTHING! PERIOD.
Jim, does your wife know about this?
Best leave this sad situation up to the JAG and the insurance company........
I also have friends in Romania - lived there for two years as a missionary. They are our good friends and allies and we need to keep it that way.
He blew a .09 according to the article at Reply #24. That’s legally drunk in California and many other states.
Do we know the law in Romania? By what standard would the marine be measured?
The allowed B.A.C. is zero, as per the same article.
What are the rules of evidence there? Is the accused allowed an attorney? If found guilty, what is the penalty? Would you agree to have a serving member of our armed forces tried and sentenced according to sha'ria law, for instance?
Romania is a European, Christian country and an ally. Their laws are what they are. I am of the opinion that unless we are occupying a country by force and engaged in combat (e.g. Afghanistan and Iraq) our military and diplomatic personnel should be treated just like everyone else is. No immunity.
IF drunk driving was the cause of this unfortunate death, then the marine should be held accountable in the United States and punished to the full extent of the law, if guilty. To do otherwise is to set a very dangerous precedent.
As I stated in Reply #22, the presence of alcohol creates a presumption of liability in Romania. I don’t have a link for this observation as it is derived from my personal experiences there. When you say “to the full extent of the law” whose law do you mean? The Marine was operating a vehicle on Romanian streets and a Romanian citizen was killed. I think a dangerous precedent would be set by failing to respect their sovereignty. Would you feel differently about where this Marine faced justice if the accident had occurred in Canada, Australia, or the U.K? Why should we treat Romania differently?
I agree about the Romanians. Further, I think it is important to afford the maximum possible respect to all democratic countries. If the Romanians or whoever will try him fairly and treat him humanely if convicted (and in this case the Romanians say they will) then, to me, the only reasonable course is to submit to their justice. Otherwise we are setting ourselves up to be the Judge Dredd of the world - the final arbiters of all cases. We are all better off if others step up the quality of their justice systems.
I think a dangerous precedent would be set by failing to respect their sovereignty. Would you feel differently about where this Marine faced justice if the accident had occurred in Canada, Australia, or the U.K? Why should we treat Romania differently?
No, I would feel no differently if the accident had occurred in Canada, the UK or Australia. Romania, nor any country, including those you named, should be treated any differently. The dangerous precedent is that by opening this door, we cannot reasonably be selective. I'm sure there are countries with whom we have diplomatic relations where someone could receive the death penalty merely for being drunk, even had no accident occurred. Or, countries whose penalties for guilt would be considered inhumane or barbaric by our standards. Countries who wouldn't allow proper legal representation, or have unjust standards of evidence or burdens of proof by our standards. Kangaroo courts.
I don't see this issue any differently than the international military tribunal. If US diplomats or US armed forces commit crimes in other lands according to US law, let them be returned to the US for prosecution and sentencing according to US law.
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