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To: StJacques
Thank you for your reply!

Semiosis is in fact more "behavioralistic" than "materialistic," but with that understanding in hand it does provide, to use your words, a "plausible explanation for the rise of information both in biological systems and the universe" that you suggested was the inherent problem with evolutionary theory that points to Intelligent Design. I believe the experts you have cited would argue that bio-semotic systems theory suggests otherwise.

The article was quite interesting but obviously it is taking a behavioralistic approach to the definition of ”what is life?” rather than the more epistemologically zealous approach of mathematicians and physicists. The original challenge (quoted by Pattee):

"How, therefore, we must ask, is it possible for us to distinguish the living from the lifeless if we can describe both conceptually by the motion of inorganic corpuscles?" - Karl Pearson The Grammar of Science

Semiosis concerns the ability to establish connections between symbols and, whereas it speaks to the mechanism, translation and therefore effectiveness of communication, it does not speak to the successful communication itself, i.e. the reduction of uncertainty in the receiver (i.e. information, Shannon).

IOW, bio-semiosis is an effect of the rise of information in the universe and in biological systems – it is not the cause of that effect. As a metaphor, biosemiosis is like your computer and software, information (Shannon, successful communication) is like your electrical current and internet connection.

The first person to come up with a plausible cause which is published in a peer-reviewed journal will be able to claim the prize.

BTW, I do not wish to demean the value of biosemiotics for biological research. Symbolization is an important advancement in understanding molecular biology. As your article says:

Biosemiotics, if it is a paradigm for biology, should mean a different approach in all branches of biology. It cannot restrict itself to the re-interpretation of existing knowledge (like a philosophy of biology), with the application of a new terminology. It is a way of thinking, experimenting and describing for both theoretical and empirical biology. For Uexküll, Umweltforschung was, first of all, an experimental science, the detailed physiological description and analysis of functional circles, the investigation of sensors and effectors of organisms together with the codes which connect them both inside and outside the organism. The semiotic approach has raised this problem and makes this work meaningful. However, the problem of what the semiotic approach should mean for experimental biology, is still almost uninvestigated in contemporary biosemiotics.

From the point of view of sociology of science, biosemiotics, according to the impact made by Hoffmeyer, seems to be a child of the cultural movement, related somehow to the values of methodological anarchism and love of symbiosis, holism and critics of neo-Darwinism. However, my belief is that it should be combined with the results of theoretical biology, as we understand it at the end of the 20th century, with the understanding of complex systems, chaos, recursive mathematics etc. When combining all these tools, biosemiotics may indeed build the bridges it has started to build.


318 posted on 11/30/2004 8:33:55 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl
Ok, so if I understand you correctly, you believe that the evolutionary model will not be believable until it accounts for the origins of life rather than just explaining the processes of evolution within life. Am I right? If not, I'll wait for further elucidation.

Now; on to your quote from Pearson, which you note Pattee presents as "the original challenge." I would like to suggest that you examine exactly what the challenge is to which Pattee refers. It is not to define life in terms of purpose or normative values, but rather to propose a standard upon which to build an alternative to what he describes as the "reductionist" approach that has come to dominate within biology that uses the pre-quantum theory language of Physics when building biological models and systems. Pattee wants biologists (molecular, evolutionary, etc.) to develop a new symbolic communication that treats life and its processes differently than non-life. And he argues that scientists operating within the outdated epistemological framework of the "reductionist" era of Physics cannot accurately approach the dynamic nature of biological systems since they attempt to reduce them to constituent parts through the "measuring constraints" they impose, and in the process insert their own subjective judgement that natural laws permit them to accurately observe the phenomena from which they wish to draw scientific generalizations. And Pattee argues that this fails to incorporate the dynamic nature of the process of measurement when dealing with life, he says you must have "dynamical laws" as a complement to "natural laws," and is really only accurate in measuring the constraints scientists impose before making their observations. Note the following quote, I'm removing footnote notations again, taken from part 9 of Pattee's treatise:

". . . The most convincing general argument for this irreducible complementarity of dynamical laws and measurement function comes again from von Neumann. He calls the system being measured, S, and the measuring device, M, that must provide the initial conditions for the dynamic laws of S. Since the non-integrable constraint, M, is also a physical system obeying the same laws as S, we may try a unified description by considering the combined physical system (S + M). But then we will need a new measuring device, M', to provide the initial conditions for the larger system (S + M). This leads to an infinite regress; but the main point is that even though any constraint like a measuring device, M, can in principle be described by more detailed universal laws, the fact is that if you choose to do so you will lose the function of M as a measuring device. This demonstrates that laws cannot describe the pragmatic function of measurement even if they can correctly and completely describe the detailed dynamics of the measuring constraints. . . ."

What Pattee is doing here is applying the language of quantum physics to scientific observation of biological phenomena by pointing out that observing life itself changes the rules. It is the same logic Neils Bohr used (and Pattee cites him) when he proved that you could measure the speed of an electron without knowing its location or conversely you could ascertain the location without measuring the speed because the observer acted as a subjective participant choosing to target one or the other and that both could not be known simultaneously, thus contradicting one of the key principles of Newtonian physics, which is that knowledge of all phenomena could be known. In the same way that quantum physics moved science beyond Newtonian "natural law" philosophy, a new dynamic form of reasoning that accounts for life as something distinct from non-life and recognizes the subjective role the observer plays is needed, according to Pattee and Von Neumann. Quite frankly, it's brilliant. But that is the context in which Pattee asks the question "what is life"? Because he views it as a dynamic system whose observable phenomena must be handled within a new context of observation that accounts for the role of the observer. He is not asking the question in reference to the origins of life, he is insisting that life functions under a dynamical system all its own.

And finally; Semiosis and the "rise of information both in biological systems and the universe." I wish I had caught something I now see in this precondition you set because, when discussing the Theory of Evolution, the rise of information in biological systems is relevant while the rise of information in the universe is irrelevant. The first condition is a scientific query. The second is a metaphysical one that can never be proven or disproven and has no place in a scientific discussion of the Theory of Evolution. Semiosis, according to its adherents, is the control mechanism of evolution, explaining how it proceeds from one step to the next. As a control mechanism that starts, runs its course, finishes, and then starts again it is circular in nature but it does explain how the rise of information proceeds from one stage to the next. To view the entirety of the rise of information you need a linear model, which is how Von Neumann presented "open ended evolution." Semiosis does not offer an explanation that begins before the origins of life, as Pattee makes clear in part 10 of his paper:

". . . We speak of the genes controlling protein synthesis, but to accomplish this they must rely on previously synthesized and organized enzymes and RNAs. This additional self-referent condition for being the subject-part of an epistemic cut I have called semantic (or semiotic) closure. This is the molecular chicken-egg closure that makes the origin of life problem so difficult. . . ."

So Semiosis does not explain the origins of the first stage of the creation of information in a biological system but it does explain the dynamics of how that information rises from simple to ever more complex stages. And the joining of the circular model of Semiosis with a linear model is a "Semiotic System" as argued by Cliff Josslyn, another of the Los Alamos scientists building upon Pattee's work, in his paper The Semiotics of Control and Modeling Relations in Complex Systems. See part 6, "Controls and Models as Semiotic Systems."

Now as I stated in the beginning of this post, I'll have to wait and see whether you will argue that the Theory of Evolution fails because it does not offer an explanation for the origins of life. I will point out that I find none of the experts you have referenced presenting this as a shortcoming of the theory, though I imagine this is viewed as a problem in the Theory of Intelligent Design, which I am gradually coming to view at a distance, though I have not read it personally, as unscientific.
319 posted on 11/30/2004 11:36:54 PM PST by StJacques
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