[Pondman88]

What do we have to fear from a capitalist inspired economy? Capitalism promotes democracy, and China will become more demecratic. Their economy is growing, that is a good thing, not a bad thing. Is China going to invade the US? If China has land ambitions it is probably towards Russia or Japan or Taiwan. And they have co-existed with both Japan and Russia peacefully for the past 50 years. As China becomes more prosperous its citizenry have more money, allowing US companies to sell to them.

[Srirangan]

>> Is China going to invade the US? If China has land ambitions
>> it is probably towards Russia or Japan or Taiwan. And they
>> have co-existed with both Japan and Russia peacefully for
>> the past 50 years.


Eh. China does have territorial disputes with Japan, Russia, Vietnam, Thailand and India. Basically almost all her neighboors. Your "Peaceful Harmless" China mantra won't find any (intelligent) listeners.

Fact is, in essence China is communist. No matter in which colors they paint it, it will remain communist. If China is indeed capitalist I dare you tell me one global brand that has emerged out of China? None. They steal, reverse engineer, mass produce, and flood overseas markets with sub standard good. This is not capitalism.

[bowzer313]

"...If China has land ambitions it is probably towards Russia or Japan or Taiwan."

Taiwan has had nuclear reactors providing electricity for over 40 years. They have a first-rate air force and an adequate modern navy. Is it possible to assume that they WOULDN'T have nuclear weapons available for their self-defense, even if they haven't claimed this outright? The Israelis have NEVER stated that they have nuclear weapons, although the entire world knows that they do. The only thing we have to fear from China is that the PRC and Taiwan don't destroy each other in some mad act of self-immolation.

[hedgetrimmer]

What do we have to fear from a capitalist inspired economy?

What we have to fear is an economy based on public/private partnerships, called fascism, that is the type of economy promoted by the WTO.

For China to gain membership in the WTO, they had to make changes to accommodate the WTOs model of "civil society". That is, a society where government and business partner together in all aspects of society, not just trade. These public/private partnerships are breeding grounds for corruption and graft among businessmen and politicians. They destroy the free market, because if you don't play the governments game, you cannot compete with other companies who do, and who get tax breaks and other incentives for participating in the government's schemes.

China is now bringing their particular form of public/private fascism to the Americas. They will begin investing heavily in Cuba, encouraging Castro and the Cuban people to continue their "advance on the road of socialist construction">

Capitalism encouraging socialism? Or is it "free trade" socialism that is really being encouraged by the world trade pacts?

[El Gato]

Capitalism promotes democracy, and China will become more demecratic.

But what they have isnt' really capitalism. Industry is still mostly state owned. They just instituted competion between bureaus. It seems to work better for them than it did for the Soviets, who did much the same, at least in the aviation industry.

[sanchmo]

> What do we have to fear from a
> capitalist inspired economy?

See my post #31.
China doesn't make sense if you think of it as capitalist.
China doesn't make sense if you think of it as communist.

Chine only make sense if you think of it as fascist.

[GOP_1900AD]

RE: Capitalism promotes democracy

Yeah, like it did in Germany prior to WW2. However, republican government (not democracy) does promote capitalism and other indicators of freedom. You have a lot to learn.

[A. Pole]

What do we have to fear from a capitalist inspired economy? Capitalism promotes democracy, and China will become more democratic.

History shows that democracies do not last very long. The prevalence of democracy in the West is only a few generations old and the signs of decline are already showing.

Countries with the more republican form of democracy like ancient Rome or present USA last longer, but they seem to turn into the imperial oligarchic monarchy (disguised of old republican symbols) with the increase of prosperity and power abroad.

[Dont_Tread_On_Me_888]

Capitalism promotes democracy

You are wrong.

Captilalism promotes capitalism.

It is possible to have a nation ruled by an iron hand and still have capitalism. The means of production can be corporate controlled (even if the government has a say) and individually owned. Miltaristic expansionists can still control the armed forces even in a capitalistic country.

China never really bought into the definition of communism, "Soviet style". China uses capitalism as an economic means to achive its geopolitical and military goals.

[FITZ]

What do we have to fear from a capitalist inspired economy? Capitalism promotes democracy, and China will become more demecratic.

China is a Communist economy --- the government owns the labor of the workers. Just because the government of China is getting wealthy it doesn't mean it's not Communist.

[shaggy eel]

What do we have to fear from a capitalist inspired economy?

,,, quite simply, economies of scale and China's retention of a regime that can mass produce anything you care to name whilst enforcing slave labour rates of pay. The wings for the new Boeing 7E7 will be made there. America is in transition from being a price maker to being a price taker. It's only a matter of years away.

[Paul Ross]

Capitalism promotes democracy, and China will become more democratic.

This is not an economic law, certainly one that would be accepted axiomatically by any economic historians. In the case of China, Dissident refugee Harry Wu also would beg to differ:

Page 1

Testimony of Harry Wu

Executive Director, Laogai Research Foundation

Before the

Committee on Commerce, Science and Transportation

Of the

United States Senate

China, PNTR and WTO

April 11, 2000

It has long been fashionable to think, that what is good for Wall Street is good for the United

States. Globalization has greatly benefited multinational corporations, and it is true that PNTR

and WTO entry for China will further help these companies economically. But the other major

beneficiary of China's entry into the World Trade Organization will be the Chinese Communist

Party. The CCP maintains political and economic control in China, and WTO entry will not

change that.

So we must first consider the effects of China's entry into the WTO on national security.

Congress should, when it considers permanent NTR status for China, put this agreement under

a national security microscope. The relationship between a lack of democracy, economic

growth, and China's military expansion is a serious one and must be closely examined. The

People's Liberation Army, which the United States fought against in Korea and Vietnam, still

serves as a major component of this tyrannical regime. When we talk about China slowly

achieving superpower status, we must be aware that this is a Communist power.

In recent years, many people have argued that money really can transform a tyrannical

government. You heard that engagement with Chinese communist government by trade,

investment and technology exchange is the best way to foster democracy and improve human

rights in China. Of course these arguments were not applied to the former Soviet Union, today’s

North Korea or Cuba. It is true that living conditions for many Chinese have improved thanks to

millions of dollars of foreign investment. But it is the Chinese government that benefits most from

foreign trade and investment. The government needs foreign money and technology to maintain

and increase its power and to modernize their system of tyranny. The Chinese government is

using hard currency from foreign investment to rebuild its security force: to hire 2,000 former

Soviet Union military experts to work for PLA; purchase missile destroys and SU-27 jets from

Russia; and support terrorist countries like North Korea, Iran and Iraq.

Faced with the bankruptcy of socialist economy, what the Chinese government wants most is

increased foreign investments and guaranteed access to foreign markets, with no threat of

bilateral sanctions. This trading status gives just that to the Chinese Communist dictators,

increasing their authority and claims to legitimacy. The WTO and PNTR deal will give a timely

boost to the Chinese Communist leadership. This blood transfusion to an obsolete and dying

---

Page 2

regime is both unwise and unnecessary.

Unfortunately, investing in China is putting your money into the pockets of the Communist

government, and of corrupt officials. The Chinese government is the ultimate decision maker,

and all companies have to obey its political choices. These investments involve high risk.

American business partners in China are not free capitalists. Most of these big companies

in China are owned completely by the Chinese government. That's why you saw some many

Communist businessmen driving Mercedes Benzes to come to Wall Street, even to the White

House.

It is a serious mistake when some try to tell you that China is becoming a market economy.

The Communist Party cannot institute a true market economy. The Chinese economic miracle is

based on bad loans, a transfer of wealth from the state to Party cadres, and bad accounting--

not on true production of wealth. The so-called "market economy" in China’s mainland is

actually a "socialist market economy," controlled by the government.

The Chinese Communist leadership has not proven to be a reliable partner in its

international dealings. Its human rights abuses violate the United Nations treaties it has signed,

and it continues to violate other trade treaties by dumping and exporting forced labor products.

Why do the Western capitalists want to rush into China? China has a population of 1.25

billion. This is a lucrative market. Nobody can turn away from it. But even more importantly,

China has a huge cheap and obedient labor force. In this country there is no free trade unions,

all the men and women are controlled by one hand the Communist government. Chinese

officials will maintain order in your business.

We've heard many politicians and business people say that doing business in China helps

spread American values and business practices. It is true, that Chinese businessmen are willing

to learn how to be more efficient, but US businesses in China will never be allowed to take

steps to improve human rights that go against the fundamental policies of the Communist Party.

The Chinese communist government is one of the worst human rights violators in the world

today. In China, there is a national "population control" policy. Every woman and family is

subject to this policy. If a woman in an American company gives birth to a child without a

permit, Chinese law says that she will be fired. There is nothing the American bosses can do. If

Chinese workers want to organize an independent trade union in an American company in

China, these people would be fired or even arrested. Again, there is nothing the American

bosses can do.

---

Page 3

We have seen the dollars to democracy theory fail over the past twenty years. The Chinese

people may have more brands to choose from at the store, but they still risk arrest, torture and

imprisonment because of their political beliefs or their faith. China continues to imprison political

dissenters and labor activists, to repress religious freedom, to execute more of its citizens than

any nation in the world, to violate the rights of women in its population control policy.

The current crackdown on the Falungong is a sad but perfect example of the how that the

Chinese government treats its common citizens. We have all seen the people of the members of

Falungong practicing their beliefs. What are these people doing? Are they throwing bombs?

Are they gathering secretly to discuss the overthrow of the government? No, they are practicing

traditional breathing exercises. But the government is so paranoid, as all totalitarian regimes are,

so it considers these people a threat. And will treat them as it does any threat, by cracking

down quickly and completely. The members of Falungong are dragged into waiting vans to be

detained and imprisoned. Lawyers in China have been instructed not to represent these people,

showing that the Chinese government will easily break its own laws when it decides to.

As the Chinese Communist Party grows richer and stronger from this deal, part of its new

wealth will go to upgrading its instruments of authority: the police and the military. Foreign

investment will help them crackdown on the Falungong more efficiently, it will help them harvest

organs from prisoners with better technology.

In 1994, the Clinton administration de-linked human rights and trade. This fulfilled the basic

desires of the Chinese communist government. Last month the State Department Human Rights

Report admitted that the human rights situation in China is worsening. The administration intends

to introduce a resolution at the human rights Commission in Geneva this year. But why not take

a stand in Washington DC, using our economic leverage? If foreign policy does not contain a

moral basis, it is a typical appeasement policy.

From a human rights standpoint, one can only hope this focus on trade agreements will not

completely overshadow the long road that must be traveled towards democracy in China.

Perhaps one day, the U.S. government will try to promote human rights in China with the same

zeal that it runs after market access.

I am asking you policymakers -- to re-think United States' China policy that currently

puts profit over principle, otherwise we will be traveling down a road to larger and more difficult

problems. We should not give the Communist Party in China a blank check.

[Havoc]

Capitalism does not promote democracy - it promotes wealth. This is why it works in any system it is introduced to - Free or totalitarian matters not a whit to money or to those who wish to have said money. The strength of our will combined in the 1940s with our resources to build us into a greater power than we had been through industrialization.

The Chinese will is just as great. Morons can make money if they follow capitalistic ideals. Look at the number of idiots in the US screwing people out of their property at rediculous prices, jacking up the price and reselling higher and higher every day - pushing the cost of the average home farther and farther from the grasp of the average person.. They're getting rich; but, morality and similar considerations don't enter into the picture. They're working a system. And that's all it takes. This country has prospered in the past because it's people payed due devotion to their craator. For a growing part of the society, that is no longer the case.

Our freedom is recognized by our forefathers as coming from God and a natural right. The Chinese don't recognize such a God. Nor do they recognize natural rights. Nor will they care what you think when they dominate the Globe and tell you what you can or cannot think. Without God and an origin for natural rights - what constitutes a right, then, is no longer a concrete thing - it is merely an opinion...

Corporate America is in process of selling all of us out. Not me alone, you alone or anyone else alone. It is our collective economic system that is being attacked from within and without - ours. All of us are at risk. But the money grubbers are making fortunes from it and can't be bothered with such considerations as your opinion. For them, this is a game. As long as they can convince you to shut up and go quietly, they're happy.

I won't challenge anyone to wakeup. I think you all know better. This country wised up to snake oil salesmen long ago. If you can't see what's happening it's because you don't want to at this point. It's time to stop thinking and talking and start doing. It's time once again in this country to recognize the King standing on another shore demanding more profit. And it's time once again to tell him to go fetch - in print, by voice, by show of protest and if necessary as a last resort - by force. When businessmen conspire wittingly or unwittingly with our greatest enemy to subvert our economy - that engine which allows us to build and defend our society - something must be done. When the politicians either blindly or willingly prop up such activities, they no longer represent us. And they are definitely compromised to the point that our interests are subject to their preferred profit. At that point, they are the King on the other shore.. right along with the US corporations who forgot where they came from.