Posted on 11/21/2004 8:22:34 PM PST by ETERNAL WARMING
Bush Says Immigration Reform Coming In 2nd Term Asia-Pacific Summit Comes To An End
POSTED: 1:27 pm EST November 21, 2004 UPDATED: 1:44 pm EST November 21, 2004
SANTIAGO, Chile -- President George W. Bush has told his Mexican counterpart he campaigned for re-election on immigration reform and is ready to push it in a second term.
AP George W. Bush and Russian President Vladimir Putin wear traditional Chilean ponchos during the APEC summit in Santiago, Chile.
The president met with Vicente Fox just before they and other Pacific Rim leaders sat down for a second day of talks in Chile.
Bush has proposed a guest worker program that he insists is not an amnesty for undocumented Mexicans. But the idea was shelved after 9/11, and still faces sizable opposition in Congress.
The Asia-Pacific summit in Chile ended Sunday with a call for new steps to promote free trade -- and to fight terror.
President Bush and the other 20 leaders are urging that negotiators wrap up a new world trade deal as quickly as possible. And they're promising a series of measures aimed at protecting food supplies, airlines and other potential terrorist targets.
Those items were in a final communique read by Chilean President Ricardo Lagos, who thanked the leaders for working to ensure the region's economies grow -- and all their people benefit.
Bush has a round of talks with Lagos later Sunday, followed by a joint news conference and dinner. He heads home to Texas Monday with a stopover in Colombia.
Yeah, heaven help anyone questioning Bush and his motives. Far better to give him a blank check, ask no questions because, after all, he is a republican. Let's just forget about all that other liberal stuff he has delved into for the last 4 years.
You blame bush and crony-isms, but you ignore the complexity of this problem and the simplicity of his solution and the far reaching effects it could have if written properly and implemented with the same zeal that you use to fight it.
Yes, I don't trust Bush and am on solid ground for thinking that. We will see how this shakes out, especially if Bush gets his way. I'm going to love to see your spin.
Large internment camps will be needed on the border, and once the voluntary business is complete the roll up of the stragglers will begin and it will be messy.
This is the point where international crying will begin.
It is not going to be easy, but it can be done and with new law enacted that covers current court objections, the court fights will occur without affecting the system, just the status of those in the camps, the way I see it.(since the rest of the program would be constitutional and settled law based on years of ex-pat work permit law.
As I stated earlier and on many threads, the devil is often in the details, and there are many questions that need serious consideration to make this idea fly.
In the end, I would hope that coming across the border illegally will be fruitless, as there will be very little advantage to it and no jobs or benefits available, except for a free ride back home.
The emphasis would shift from correcting the problem after the fact to correcting the causal factors that create it in the first place.
This is the basis of the idea and there will be unhappy folks on both sides of the border. Wait till the American business community finally figures out what this will mean to them.
This battle has not yet even begun.
I don't know why you think it will be any different this time around. Especially when this president has proven time and again to be an enthusiastic supporter of illegal immigration...in word and deed.
Anyway, thanks for your perspective on this issue and have a Happy Thanksgiving...
Well,if you really believe this, then it explains your perspectives.
Bush has been in the catbird seat in Texas, and has unique perspective on Immigration. In fact, this proposal was first voiced by him as governor.
But, we will have many more days, weeks and perhaps years to expound on this issue and many others.
Thanks be, that we can do it here on a site that is made for that purpose and provided by the Robinson's and all the folks who devote their money and time to make it a success.
Happy Thanksgiving to you as well.
Then how does the Bush amnesty plan help --- millions more illegals will pour over the borders --- likely putting the "guest" workers out of work. The "guest" workers will get cocky thinking they would be entitled to minimum wage and maybe some workplace protections and their employers will just have to fire them and find some more submissive illegals who can be paid much less. This amnesty would do nothing to stop even more massive illegal immigration --- and you know full well the president of Mexico would never consent to the "guests" going back to Mexico to live.
If a work permit is required to stay, and a job is required for the permit, then there will be a gradual reduction as the plan implements.
It will, or perhaps I need to quality the with the word "should", begin to dry up the underground economy that shelters the illegal and therefore dry up the desire to cross illegally.
We tried in 86 to control these employers. What we ended up with is a huge and impossible to regulate, underground cash paying economy the provide the income, shelter and even feeds them in many cases.
This word gets back to Mexico and more come, more business are created, and more are employed. There are 100s of thousands of operations that do don't pay a dime into social security, nor do they pay federal, state or local taxes.
The work permit requires the illegal to furnish information about where he is employed, the salary he gets, what he does and whether taxes are withheld.
In order for this business to provide this info, they will have to comply with fed regulations like everyone else.
They have not yet figured this out.
When they do, there will be some serious cat fights.
The details of this are not in writing yet, but the effects are obvious. I saw them immediately after I heard this proposal.
I know what small business is like.I have owned a couple and I know federal employment laws and requirements.
These businesses get by without following the law because there are so, so many of them. In order to get their illegals under the permit regime, they will need to comply.
When it is all said and done, there will be fewer jobs, they will not necessarily pay more, but taxes and social security will be paid.
I would guess, that at least a third of the current jobs will dry up. The reason to cross will dry up along with the jobs, and it will now be required in every jurisdiction that the permit is required for them to work.
Not to mention that they will get a security check as part of the deal.
I suspect most of this will be voluntary. As the program implements, more and more of them will may their way to the facilities where they can obtain permits and biometric ID's that are taper proof. They will need to give up a bunch of information about employers, family members, addresses and the like. It will be one hell of a data mining operation.
Look for a real fight coming, because if they even come close to doing this right, it will have a chilling effect on illegal crossing and even more so on the huge underground economy that provides what they came for.
I would like to help in this effort, because I see it working to do something we cannot do now, under the current law. I do not see much court interference because all the business laws are on the books and solid. Hell, they won't even need to pick them up! No sir, the courts will not be able to stop this,as they do with every attempt to round up illegals or protect the border.
In ten years, there will be little reason to look for anything but terrorists and smugglers. They won't be coming for work without a job, just like any other ex-pat. They would be eligible for a ex-pat drivers license that prohibits voting. There will be little benefit to illegal crossings and Mexicans now here, and employed will be able to go home without fear of apprehension, as it was back before 86 when illegal border crossings was not the popular thing it is today.
It is gonna be a tough fight, but illegal employers do not have allot of congressional clout, and legal employers will appreciate the cleaning up of the underground.
We need to get this right, and I believe they can,and they also need to sell this to you and everyone else who do not believe it will work. It is not surprising at all that people don't have any faith, especially after the 86 mess.
We can do this, but nothing will ever be done without public support. I want to do this right, and be able to end this mess. It will never end with the current objectives of attempting to keep them out. We must get at the reasons they come and how, and more importantly WHY they manage to stay.
But that's the problem ---if someone can get a live-in nanny or gardener that is a "guest worker" who would cost more because maybe some minimum wage standard must be met or some taxes would have to be paid on that income --- then why go that route when they could get an illegal like they do now much much cheaper?
Not all illegals that are here now could pass a background check depending on how it's done. They will just not obtain guest worker status and stay as illegals. This just sets up another green-card type program ---- current illegals already have a choice to apply for a green card or other work permit. Employers already have legal options of hiring green card and other foreign workers.
The reason many hire illegals is to bypass labor laws and minimum wage laws --- if the "guest workers" aren't thoroughly subsidized by the taxpayers then the employer will just continue to obtain illegals because they are.
Legal status is required now --- but without enforcement of laws then the current mess will not only go on but will get worse and worse. Not all illegals coming over here are coming to work ---- many are pregnant women on their way to a hospital --- many are part of the narcotrafficking networks.
Green cards, are applied for in Mexico, and the waiting list is years long. That will continue, although I suspect there will be some adjustment of the numbers. Bush has signaled that, and it is also the recommendations of the immigration folks.
Domestic service can and will be affected. It is really the least of the problem, and domestics do not account for large numbers. This area will be handled through IRS and other ways. The work permit number will need to be associated with asocial security card and domestic employers are currently required to pay into the system.
The key to the entire sequence of expected results is the Fed.Id number that employers will be required to get in order to comply with the law.
The Fed Id requires that a bank account is created and payroll records are kept. It is a big deal, and it forces employers to play the game.
I mentioned the voluntary nature of this,not because we can't force them, but because we can't handle large numbers all at the same time.
They will have every reason to come in to get a permit as the program propagates and their current jobs dry up.
No cardee, no workee!
I envision large tent city like camps to hold them until processed. I am thinking that a couple old military bases could be used.
This is gonna take some time. I think ten years to process, acquire data,and catalog do many people.
Enforcement would need to be increased as well on the borders, but we would not really need to round them up as we do without effect now.
They will have to come in, they will have no choice at some point.
What about the families you ask? (which you did not). There are most certainly many questions to answer and problems that need solving.
Once they are taxed, they will need to file a return like everyone else. Kids will need Social security numbers, and all the family info goes to IRS. There is plenty of enforcement mechanism existing for all of this and it is settled law.
I expect the Fed to also impose a fine to punish for illegal entry as part of the process. This money will be used to defray the costs of the program and settle the legal need to punish a crime.
If they don't want to pay it, they are not allowed to apply for a green card, and they go home. It's that simple.
I would think that people who would not be satisfied with this as a punishment, really are more than just anti-illegal immigration. I see comments that lead me to believe there is a disdain for immigrants of any status, and that is unfortunate. I can't suggest a fix for that. But I see it everyday on these threads.
Yes, it is required, but the enforcement without any controls on the underground economy that they thrive in, is not going to get any more effective.
You cannot stop them from coming if they can avoid enforcement, and they are.
What little they can do, the courts have negated.
Hell, they cannot even deport a violent criminal without a hearing and that takes months. There is not enough space to hold them and they know it.
You cannot control something that is by nature hidden from view, both legally and visually.
Current law and attempts to fix it have all failed miserably.
These ideas I have put forth, use the momentums and strengths of the illegals against them and thereby modify their behavior.
They will have no reason to cross illegally when it is fully implemented, unless they are up to no good.
This obsession with the word amnesty is only guaranteeing more of the same.
We must get this situation under control, and if we control the underground economy, and make false documents extremely hard to create or impossible, we will have this problem solved. And America will be a better and stronger place for it.
The underground economy does way more damage that just employing illegals of all persuasions, it is a leach on society, hurts legitamate business and the source of many of our problems.
Ten years??? Mexico is going to either be under Communist rule or in anarcy well before then. The massive exodus of people out of there is doing nothing to bring about stability. The "guest" workers will never be returning to Mexico --- not in 3 years, not in 6 years --- in 3 years they can have several anchor babies --- whose USA citizenship guarantees them a "right" to stay and collect welfare handouts.
Massive migration results from instability and it leads to greater instability. If something isn't done immediately to stop what is going on in Mexico it's going to break apart completely very soon. All these pacts with the corrupt leaders of Mexico just attempts to put a bandaid on the problem --- a very expensive bandaid that American taxpayers must pay for --- it doesn't bring about the long-needed reforms.
What time frame do do think that will take?
On the other hand, your statements about anchor babies are legit. This is a problem with out Constitution that I bring up often, as is the problem with rights to counsel and hearings after a few weeks in country.
These difficulties exist and are going to damage any process to remove them as it is doing now, tomorrow and in the future.
Without a suspension of Habeas, or declaration of national emergency, the problem will continue unless the Constitution is changed.
This can be done, but as you know the process takes years and nothing is underway because the govt. is paralyzed by bitching people on both sides of this issue.
Well, I'll tell you that I am not bitchin! I want to do something innovative that deals with this from a different aspect.
The current BS will never work to eliminate, or even moderate the problem.
The only thing we can do is increase border security, and sooner or later, the Mexicans are going to mass under some nutcase and storm the walls.
You can't win this by border control alone. You can't deport these people just by saying the words. The only way to get them out is voluntarily and the carrot is the work permit, with a time certain.
Once the permit expires and is not renewed, the permit and the work privileges are gone. They gotta go home or starve. the lack of a permit will deny social services if we say it is so. They will have no legal recourse if the laws are written properly.
I don't know what else to do my FRiend. No amount to rhetoric will make our current laws work any better. We gotta scrap the code and rewrite it with new ideas to control this for the long term by controlling the demand.
It is absolutely critical that we get going on this and Bush is the man who can do it. But we gotta help him get it right.
We are in agreement on this point. We cannot depend on the Mexicans for squat!
We need to do it all from our end, and declare them hostile if we cannot get it done.
I'm talking about war. Yes I am.
Something that will be inevitable if we cannot do this effectively. They will start it, if they cannot access our job markets. I have no doubt about it.
A destabilized Mexico would be deadly to us, and them.
That might be the way it ends up having to be.
Well, one would hope it never comes to pass. If we break them, we will be fixing them as a result.
I would much prefer it happened as a more natural result of treaties and shared interests. But there is no chance of that in the near future. They are nearly a rogue state in some ways. We have our hands full for some time to come with other international messes.
Iran is next up.
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