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To: smcmike
Haha, OK, I will quit wasting your time with cliches, I want to carry on a proper "arguement." Yeah, that was a silly cheap shot, I know, but you are annoying me a little here.

I have no doubt I am. People hate to have their presumptions challenged. And they are your presumptions as I will elaborate on as this progresses.

As far as my reading goes, of late I've been through "Crisis of Islam" by Bernard Lewis...the acknowleged western authority on Islam, "What's So Great About America," by Dinesh D'Sousa, "Hatred's Kingdom," by Dore Gold, "The End to Evil," by Pearl and Frum, and many hours of lectures by both apologists and critics.

You consider yourself moderately well informed, but by what standard do you draw that conclusion? A third grade student may consider himself "good at math" without ever even knowing what the word "Algebra" means. You won't claim to be an expert on the current subject, but where do you qualify your opinions as largely conjecture? It's not that you don't think you have the problem backwards, it's that you don't like to think you have the problem backwards.

Let's take a small example. You cite "western imperialism" as a primary factor for the extreme antipathy towards us. Would you be so kind as to define exactly what you are calling "western imperialism?" Empires have very definte characteristics, none of which we exhibit. If a duck doesn't walk, talk, or swim like a duck, what would it take for you to admit the emperor has no clothes? (excuse the mixed metaphor)

Furthermore, you dismiss the "freedoms" argument because you don't appreciate it's implications. The reason they call us "the great satan" is because satan is a tempter, and that is exactly how they are applying the term to us, and to a lesser extent, Israel.

...it still comes down to they hate us because we helped to create a Jewish homeland (and for the various other acts in the region, there are lots).

You are ignorant of history. Believe it or not, the primary supporter at the creation of Israel was the Soviet Union. It was only after Stalin figured out England was no longer the primary western power, but rather America, that the USSR withdrew it's support for the problematic little British mandate. We didn't start substantive support for Israel until the 60s. If you read historians instead of watching TV you'd know that.

I have to break for a few hours, but I'll finish my reply with my next post.

83 posted on 11/19/2004 9:19:52 AM PST by papertyger
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To: papertyger

"You consider yourself moderately well informed, but by what standard do you draw that conclusion? A third grade student may consider himself "good at math" without ever even knowing what the word "Algebra" means."

I think the phrase I used was "moderately well informed citizen." Which would be more equivalent to the third grader saying "I am good at math for a third grader." I hold no special expertise on the subject, but I probably know more about it than the average American citizen. Pretty clear.

"Western imperialism" is an overused phrase, and I did hesitate to use it. But you can't say that the history of the ME has not been shaped by imperialism.

It is certainly true that many Muslims see western ways as a negative influence on their society, but I would argue that the primary radicalizing issue is Isreal. As far as the origins of the Isreali state, I admit I am not an expert. But I do know that we are closely associated with Isreal in the eyes of both the Muslim world and the world in general.

And I spend about 6 hours a day reading historians. Just not historians of anything pertinent to this discussion.


85 posted on 11/19/2004 9:36:53 AM PST by smcmike
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