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To: cajungirl

Their "forgiveness" has two parts. The one having to do with God has nothing to do with you or me. But who are we to decide if they ought be "forgiven" as you and I have not been murdered, had our family murdered, had our children murdered. I don't think we have anything to do with whether those dead people forgive or not, they are dead.

Are you suggesting earthly justice ought to be waived because you see them as forgiven?

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You make a valid point. Not being the victims of their offenses, it is not within our power or authority to forgive them. How to deal with them will have to be a decision of their victims or (in the case of the murdered dead) their lawful representatives, i.e., the victims' relatives. And these individuals are within their rights to demand the severest penalty, to the extent that the deeds of specific perpetrators can be validly determined. That, of course, is the problem: it can be extremely hard or impossible to determine exactly who did what to whom in these situations, except for a fairly small percentage of the surviving perpetrators.

In cases where the facts are difficult or impossible to determine, there can be an overwhelming temptation to "kill them all, and let Jesus sort out the details". Those who are tempted in that way need to know that they will be held accountable for their deeds according to the standards they applied to others. Judgement is inevitable, but be careful of the standard of judgement one chooses to apply to others.

Note the warnings
(immediately after the "Lord's model prayer" for believers)
Matt 6:14-15 "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

In the other great passage on judgement, in Matt 7, too many stop at verse 1, not noticing that most of the rest of the chapter provides some critical benchmarks for the unavoidable task of exercising judgement. Thus the thrust of the chapter is not "don't judge" (which those who stop at verse 1 would like us to think) but rather: exercising sound judgement is a grave and difficult responsibility, so be sure you give those you judge the same benefits of any doubts that you would hope others would give you in similar circumstances because--- verse 2: For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.

For Americans, that might include the following consideration: we live in a nation which has sanctioned the killing of tens of millions of inconvenient unborn people.
There are no "innocent bystanders" to all of this; it's well known to all. How will we fare if our standards of judgement of others is applied to us when we stand before the true Supreme Court as our case is decided?

For those who are "in the family" (this does not apply to the entire family of mankind, only those within the Christian community), there is a specific teaching on handling personal offenses found in Matt 18

Dealing with a Sinning Brother

15 "Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that "by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.'[2] 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

18 "Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. 19 "Again I say[3] to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them."

The Parable of the Unforgiving Servant
21 Then Peter came to Him and said, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?" 22 Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23 Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. 26 The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, "Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.' 27 Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt. 28 "But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, "Pay me what you owe!' 29 So his fellow servant fell down at his feet[4] and begged him, saying, "Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.'[5] 30 And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. 31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, "You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?' 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

35 "So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses."[6]

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Unfortunately, this teaching like many others has been frequently "honored with the lips, but not in the heart and with deeds". It remains the standard, however, for those who sincerely seek the Kingdom of God.


42 posted on 10/23/2004 10:21:33 PM PDT by Blue_Ridge_Mtn_Geek
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To: Blue_Ridge_Mtn_Geek

I do not suggest "kill them all". But I suggest that those who may be identified and proven to have committed murders get swift justice. That is possible. And you may be confident of their repentence but I am not and I am not in a position to judge the sincerety of that. Nor is that a question for the law. I just think the law, justice right her on earth, is due these guys. And anything having to do with God or Christians is not my focus. I don't make judgements about their faith or what God thinks nor do I assume anythiing. Other than alot of these guys need to be brought to justice and a religious conversion won't change my mind.


55 posted on 10/24/2004 6:06:41 AM PDT by cajungirl (Jammies Up!!)
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