Actually, if they inject Church doctrine into politics, yes.
Let's get something clear...the Pope strongly criticized the President for liberating Iraq, and we as Americans ignored the Vatican, as we should have in that instance.
If you want to excommunicate Kerry on this issue, you're going to have to excommunicate 2/3 of American Catholics, according to the most recent polls on this issue.
I'm with the above poster on this...I think the GOP is manipulating pro-lifers, because we've held power for some time now and absolutely nothing has changed in terms of getting it outlawed.
You are functionally illiterate when it comes to who is and is not subject to excommunication in this regard. Learn the difference, then get back to us. Until then, you only reveal your gross ignorance and bias.
Actually, if they inject Church doctrine into politics, yes.
Right, sure, because you say its so. Christians built this country and wrote its laws based on Judeo-Christian moral theology.
Judeo-christian morality is being torn out of the American fabric and its system of law by anti-religionist secular jihadists, a force far more dangerous than any Christian churchmen.
You live in a dream world.
[john_virtue]
> Let's get something clear...the Pope strongly criticized
> the President for liberating Iraq, and we as Americans
> ignored the Vatican, as we should have in that instance.
The Pope did indeed criticize the President, but there's a subtle difference between that, and saying that "the Vatican" criticized the President. The Pope issued his personal opinion (as is his right... and I respectfully disagree with his opinion), but he would be the first one to point out the difference between his opinions and Church teaching (or Church condemnations). Church teaching explicitly names the government as the competent authority for deciding whether any given war is just, or not:
"The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy [of a war] belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good.]" (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2309)
The just war issue is a *completely* different animal from the pro-life issue.
> If you want to excommunicate Kerry on this issue, you're
> going to have to excommunicate 2/3 of American Catholics,
> according to the most recent polls on this issue.
That isn't really accurate. A good many Catholics have badly deformed consciences on the issue of abortion, but the gravity of that dissention ranges from near-non-culpable ignorance, to latae sententiae excommunication. There's no way to cover such large numbers of Catholics with such a sweeping generalization. Believe me, I'm heartbroken when I hear of the "Catholics" who are indifferent to abortion, etc., but even righteous anger needs to be kept within the bounds of charity.
> I'm with the above poster on this...I think the GOP is
> manipulating pro-lifers, because we've held power for
> some time now and absolutely nothing has changed in terms
> of getting it outlawed.
From where I sit, it's mostly the RINOs who are the problem, in the GOP; the President has tried, again, and again, to nominate pro-life judges, only to meet a desperate and unprecedented filibuster in the Senate, led by rabidly pro-choice Dems. Facts are facts; the GOP doesn't have a pro-life, filibuster-proof senate.
"Faithful Catholics are now jihadists?
Actually, if they inject Church doctrine into politics, yes."
So if your legislators wanted to change the law to legalise the following:
1) Murder
2) Theft
3) Fraud
4) Deception
5) Violent assault
6) Sex with children and animals
7) Outlawing non-socialist political parties
8) Rape
...and the Catholic politicians tried to oppose them because all this was against "Church doctrine", they would be "jihadists" would they?
And you would naturally support all the above in order to oppose the jihadists?
The right to life is not Church doctrine; it is a basic truth. Catholics have a specific duty to support politics that honor life.
Red herring. First, the issues are not comparable (abortion vs. just war); and in the case of the Iraq war, while the Pope may criticize, he cannot affirmatively state that the US is wrong (nor did he--all he did was ask for another way to resolve it.)
If you want to excommunicate Kerry on this issue, you're going to have to excommunicate 2/3 of American Catholics, according to the most recent polls on this issue.
Not "all" US Catholics are Senators, Representatives, members of the Judiciary, (or similarly positioned in State governments.) The discussion centers on people in those positions who also claim to be Catholic.
As to whether many US Catholics are dead-wrong on the issue--you may be right.
As to GOP manipulation---maybe. I'm uncomfortable with the GOP's 'request' for Diocesan mailing lists, too.
However, as to ACTIONS, GWB's boyzzz have been absolutely sterling in the UN, and were GWB to get a few appointments through in his next term, you'll see some changes in judicial "thought."