Posted on 10/13/2004 12:44:17 AM PDT by struwwelpeter
No - I am not Russian.
The reference to Russians clearing mine fields by a high didle charge up the middle was from a comment by Zhukov to Ike at Potsdam.
About that moving rain of steel, if the Germans maintained a defense in depth of about 5 KM the Russians wasted a lot of Iron, because of the lack of communications to adjust fire, remember that there was only one radio at Stalingrad and that was used to report out to Stavka, most of the communications up and down the command structure was by Field Phone.
Which brings up another bone of contention, air recon. One of your Limey authors, Liddle-Hart I believe, stated that the over flight of Russian Air recon, never exceeded 25 KM during the entire war.
I have no particular love for either the Germans or the Russians. My father ran convoys into Murmansk and Archangel's and instilled in me a disgust for the Soviets from the stories he told me. I do like history told straight though,
There's an amazing tradition of veneration for heroism among the people raised in the Soviet sphere. The town of Slavutich has a shrine to the nearly 20 young people who gave their lives trying to contain the Chernobyl "katastrophe."
The reference to Russians clearing mine fields by a high didle charge up the middle was from a comment by Zhukov to Ike at Potsdam.
That was Berlin and that was an order from Stalin who wanted to be sure he got to Berlin first with the mostest.
Though the one radio is true, that was Stalingrad early Oct 1942 to mid Jan 1943. There were 2 more years of war after that.
In most locations, the Germans did not maintain defenses of 5km in depth, Hitler would not allow it. Nor would he allow mobile defense, which the Russians had proven worked very well. Strong points were simply run around, to be finished off by the second or third echelon. Thus formed several roving couldrons.
During the Vestul Offensive allone, the first Ukrainian and Belarussian fronts both not only broke through the German defenses but penetrated up to their maximum phase lines within 2 days. After that Stavka just released the commanders to their ends for the mad dash to the Oder. Many Prussian villages knew they were the front when Soviet tank columns drove through them and kept going. Only in lower Silesia and upper Prussia did the front hold out until concerted efforts were made to destroy it.
During Bageration, many German divisions of fortress infantry were left all over the map, by passed by scores of kilometeres as the front left them behind. Similarly, the recreated 6th Army was again destroyed shortly in eastern Romania. German casualties on the Eastern front far exceeded every other front.
Berlin's fate was sealed, but the resistance continued. Fighting was heavy, with house-to-house and hand-to-hand combat. The Soviets sustained 80,000 dead in the city and 305,000 in eastern Germany as a whole; the Germans sustained as many as 325,000, including civilians. In some areas of the city, vengeful Soviet troops gangraped and often killed many German women and children. Red Army officers were outraged by this behaviour.
As the Soviet forces fought their way into the centre of Berlin, Adolf Hitler appointed Admiral Karl Dönitz as the new President of Germany. On April 30th, Adolf Hitler married Eva Braun and then committed suicide by taking cyanide and shooting himself. Berlin surrendered to the soviets on May 2. Germany surrendered to the Allies on 7 May 1945.
The Battle of Berlin was over, and with it went the Third Reich. The thousand-year Reich had lasted for twelve years, and 40 million people were dead. The German Surrender was signed on May 7 in Rheims, France. Nevertheless some German troops continued resistance for several more days
Getting back to the Vistula battle. Himmler was in command of the Army group, it was a disaster from the get go, Hitler was looking for loyality rather than competance.
I have never gamed this Battle because of the stupidity on the German side, the Russians had some stupid commanders, Popov for example, but this took the cake.
Hitler had relieved most of his competent Generals, Manstien and Heinricci, example, and replaced them with the second line of dedicated Nazis, a poor crop at best.
The casultie figures I have seen for Berlin were closer to a Million on the Russian side. The charge up the middle thing comes from German soldiers I have talked to who served from 1942 on, lived in a heavily German area when I was a kid and heard a lot of stories from immigrant Ost Kampfers.
Himmler was only in charge of Army Group Vestula, which was formed on the Oder of the remains of the various armies destroyed on the Vestula. He was only in charge for a short time, long enough to screw up Operation SonderWinde. He was never really even in charge, being to "sick" to come to the front away from luxury.
I've never heard of more then 300,000 for Berlin. The charge up the middle was because Stalin didn't want to wait to clear those mines, wanted Berlin ASAP. The actual train up and planning and execution of Bagration, Kursk, Vestula to Oder, Prussian, Upper Silesian, Balkan Swing were all excellent operations. The Soviet generals were on a massive roll from 1944 to 1945 and argueably not to bad in 43. 41 & 42 was when the chafe got seperated out.
If you go to the National Achives and request the Morning reports, about a 5 cents a page, for the 1st SS PZ Corps, actually PZ Grenadeer Divisions, you might get a different view of Kursk. Hausser has stated, after the battle, that with 24 hours more he would have completed the circle.
It is true that Army Group Center got the poop beat out of it at Kursk, largely Infantry, Army Group South, Manstein still had 4 uncommitted PZ divisions before Hitler lost his one ball and panicked at the US invasion of Italy.
A lot of the history that you read about Kursk was written before the realese of the records of the the 1st SS Panzer Corps in 1988, later the 2nd SS Panzer Corps after Kursk. I can't remember whether it was the First or Fifith Tank Army that was destroyed at Kursk.
In 1944 and 1945, the kids were left on both sides. A post on FR a few years ago stated that three generations, age groups, 1923, 1924, and 1925 were wiped out on the Russian side, explaining the Broom women in Moscow.
There's an amazing tradition of veneration for heroism among the people raised in the Soviet sphere
Americans do too but our goverment does'nt build monuments. Maybe we should! I think there should be one for the heroes who attacked the terrorists on the plane on 9-11. It should says LETS ROLL!
historical ping
Worth bumping for this:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1635606/posts
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1636044/posts
How is it possible?
HF
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