Islam is What Its Followers Make of It

Middle East forum ^ | September 28 2004 | Daniel Pipes

[Marine_Uncle]

No problem. Actually, there are a lot of countries/relegions that allow mere children to become married, raped etc..

Ya know what is happeing with old Marine_Uncle is that his brain is getting soft..........Half hour ago I did some google searches on polysism as found in pre/post Islam,
the hadiths refereing to Muhammad taking a child for marraige, etc.. Well folks as I read some of this stuff, I am reminded I had read much of it not to many years ago... in my searches on Islam etc......I just am not retaining things I used to. I probably should not even be making comments on these type issues.

[Marine_Uncle]

Ok, see my brain still can work a little....... I have made statements in good faith about Arab ancestory based on Ismael,etc.. It was taken from books and biblical commenteris written some years back.......... I am alwasys one for learning .............so I just will pop this one on anyone still in this thread to show I perhaps just learned something new...................................

"There is a prevalent notion that the Arabs, both of the south and north, are descended from Ishmael; and the passage in Gen. xvi.12, "he (Ishmael) shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren," is often cited as if it were a prediction of that national independence which, upon the whole, the Arabs have maintained more than any other people. But this supposition is founded on a misconception of the original Hebrew, which runs literally, "he shall before the faces of all his brethren," i.e., (according to the idiom above explained, in which "before the face" denotes the east), the habitation of his posterity shall be "to the east" of the settlements of Abraham’s’ other descendants...These prophecies found their accomplishment in the fact of the sons of Ishmael being located, generally speaking to the east of the other descendants of Abraham, whether of Sara or of Ketuah. But the idea of the southern Arabs being of the posterity of Ishmael is entirely without foundation, and seems to have originated in the tradition invented by Arab vanity that they, as well as the Jews, are of the seed of Abraham--a vanity which, besides disfiguring and falsifying the whole history of the patriarch and his son Ishmael, has transferred the scene of it from Palestine to Mecca." (McClintock and Strong, Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, (Vol. I:339)

[Marine_Uncle]

OK.............As shown above........
"But this supposition is founded on a misconception of the original Hebrew, which runs literally, "he shall before the faces of all his brethren," i.e., (according to the idiom above explained, in which "before the face" denotes the east), the habitation of his posterity shall be "to the east" of the settlements of Abraham’s’ other descendants.."


Now as I read my Liberty Bible Commentary (KJV) .....
Gen 16:12 Ane he will be a wild man; his hadn will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethern.

So then I look in the commentary:
It reads:
And he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.
This is an idomatic use of the Hebrew, `al pene (lit., "upon/against; the face of". More particularily, it means "in defiance deregard of ..........etc..

So gentle reader. Once as they read what I got off a web site as copy and pasted in my previous thread, could go half cocked and believe that there is no way the Arabs living to the south such as in the northern and lower Arabian deserts, came out of Ismael......RIGHT. THAT IS WHAT THE WEB SITE ARTICLE STATED............
Then I see something entirely different in what I read in my well authored OT commentary based on KJV and old Massoretic text.........

So the point I want to make is for those that just pop on web sites, read a few pages of something on a topic don't automatically assume it is the whole truth or for that matter the truth based on solid time proven scholastics.

Of course I shall hike upstairs and carefully examine each original Hebrew word in that OT passage, and verify it fits into what I read in my commentary, but I bet I will find it to say the same thing. I use Strongs Concordance.

[Marine_Uncle]

OK folks............as I piece the words into context
"and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren" ...the key word here is "presence", and the best description of this word in the Hebrew (Strong's Concordance" means: against; anger; battle; enquire; face, favor, fear of;out of;over against..........

So if I where to take the word of whoever wrote the stuff at that web site quoting as coming from:
McClintock and Strong, Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, (Vol. I:339)


I would have to take pause, and wonder who is telling the correct story..............

[Marine_Uncle]

But do be aware.........Marine_Uncle is convinced Islam has nothing in common with the Hebrew religion. I understand it was created out of falsehoods, thousands of year old myths etc.. The Arab has no right to set foot in Israel or have any dominion over it because none of them ever lived there prior to or after God promised Abraham the land of milk and honey. Only after later conquests did Arabs settle into the land of Israel........

So what I wrote in the past few threads is more of a scholarly nature trying to point out we all should be carefull of what we read.......do lots of research, and take nothing for granted. If anything download a good Koran transliteration or a on-line source to always verfiy what some one claims to be in any particular Sarah of the Koran. I often find falsehoods being perpetrated.

take care all.