The only good thing I can think of about socialized medicine is that no one has to worry about being bankrupted by medical bills. I read somewhere that 1/3 or all bankruptcies in this country are due to this reason. That's pretty persuasive for a lot of folks.
That so cute.... He thinks the government should be limited by the Constitution....
When one is unemployed, getting health care is one of the motivations to look for a job. Free health care would result in more unemployment and people staying on welfare longer, no?
Seatbelt/helmet laws originate from taxpayer liability with medical expenses associated with car/motorcycle crashes.
When taxpayers become liable for all of your medical expenses, all of your behavior, from the smallest to the largest detail will come under their control.
Maybe some people don't mind making a trade like that. But I do, and my freedom isn't theirs to spend. Not for "free" health insurance, not for anything. Case closed.
We can sit for hours and discuss what a right is, and whether people have a right to health care, or whether it's an entitlement. What really matters, though, is the fact that health care is a necessity, like food and water, things that give life. We do have a right to life, right?
But look.
-Medicare for old people
-Medicaid for poor people
-all emergency room care is basically socialized, right? No one's ever "refused", whether or not they can pay or have insurance, right?
-Hospitals and doctors are so heavily regulated with government oversight to an extent that, it could be argued that they basically are a branch of government (you up on your HIPAA rules? if doctors "take Medicare patients" this obligates them to this, that and the other, doesn't it? what prices they may charge, etc?)
-HMOs... they were essentially created by the government were they not?
-And finally the insurance situation is largely government-caused. Why do we all have this funny idea that health insurance must be attached to our employer, in the first place? (You don't expect a "food-purchasing insurance plan" from your employer...) Why does health insurance cover even regular doctor visits as opposed to just catastrophic events (as, you would think, "insurance" exists for)? Because of a post-World War 2 policy of considering these "fringe benefits" as non-taxable income. In effect the government provides a subsidy to all employers to induce them to provide insurance, and then of course that immediately allows for all sorts of laws and regulations about what that insurance must be like. (Must cover birth control pills! etc)
This all may not add up to "Socialism" with a capital S of course but it does function as a kind of farmed-out, piecemeal socialism.
I'm hard pressed to identify very many actual free-market features of health care. I mean you get a job, sign up for HMO, pick your doctor (free market..I guess) from inside the "network" (not so free market), and from that point on all your visits, and what you pay for each cotton swab, are tightly controlled and rationed by actuaries. There's no "shopping around" or "bargain-hunting" here.
Given all this, to just say "we shouldn't move to Socialized medicine" isn't very helpful. A lot of lefties will argue that our system is already halfway there, but is very inefficient as a result - and they will have a point. Instead of hitching all their wagons to a "no" - "no socialism in health care" - I wish conservatives would adopt a more pro-active position, such as "we need to reform the health care system", similar to how they have positioned themselves on Social Security. "Reform" in this case would consist of some much needed free market fresh air, including:
-end to employer-based health insurance tax incentives
-aim in all things to alter the nature and understanding of "insurance" so that it is used only for catastrophic life events, not every single damn checkup, tube of toothpaste, etc.
-less regulation/control and more free market whereever feasible
I don't know. This may not be a political winner. The "Baby Boomers" are going to be an obstacle to any attempt at true free market reform of course, as they grow old and rely more and more on the government to subsidize their health care. But just saying "no socialism!" doesn't seem like much more of a political winner, and its effect is to freeze us at the amount of socialism we have, which, let's face it, is pretty damn much. With the result that as frustration grows with our current system's idiocies, a constituency builds more and more for a true nationalized health care system.
No rights are established in the U.S. Constitution. Some (but not all) are enumerated.
Social Health has all the accuracy, skill, professionalism, and privacy of your basic military pre-induction physical.
Put your toes on the line, bend over and smile.
Maybe this article should be forwarded to Bill Frist and Denny Hastert, prime movers of the multi-billion dollar Medipill bill backed by Pres. Bush. Both major parties are to blame for the insidious slide toward socialized medicine. Don't enable either of them.
No man should be forced to work for less than their due fee. In that vein perhaps there is room for government licensure of another level of care that would provide relief for those with less resources. The medical profession is against this idea, also for noted reasons.
read later
When they socialize it,and you try to get it.
Then your education begins.
Hello everyone. First things first.
I admit it, I lean to the left, but I'm not here to flame. I just want to have a reasonable, civilized debate with some conservatives. I want some insight into what makes you tick politically. I am open to the idea that, while the progressives will be right about certain things, the right can also be correct about others.
I see an unhealthy amount of polarization in US politics these days, and think we'd all be better off doing a bit more listening and a lot less screaming and name-calling.
Having said that, I'd like to present my take on johnnyb325's comments.
1) "A "right" is the ability and autonomy to perform a sovereign action."
This definition didn't seem right to me. To me you've defined something like "ability" or "capacity". My dictionary defines a "right" as "something (as a power or privilege) to which one has a just or lawful claim".
It would seem to me that everyone has an equally just and lawful claim to health and well-being, and I'm sure it's included in the UN Declaration of Human Rights.
I'm not sure I follow you when you say that in order to claim health care, you have to infringe upon the rights of others. The health care system is set up to deal with large numbers of patients, precisely so that one person's treatment doesn't preclude another's. I also fail to see how private health care is superior to nationalized health care in this respect.
2) "The word "profit" is considered to be a dirty word by many on the political left, but why?"
I agree with you. It's silly to consider profits to be evil. Capitalism uses profits as its primary motivation. Take them away and you undermine Capitalism.
However, the idea behind Capitalism and profits is that these profits will ultimately serve to benefit society as a whole. I, and the left in general, believe that this simply doesn't happen if you leave Capitalism to its own devices.
What Capitalism does is *generate* wealth, and it generates it fantastically well. It is very very good at producing most of the goods and services we see around us. But ultimately its underlying motivation is *profit,* not the greater benefit of humanity, and for this reason it seems inadequate as the sole provider of vital social programs like education and health care. Social programs should have as their sole founding principles the betterment of human life and society at large; money should not serve as a middleman.
3) "Some love to bemoan the fact that the United States is one of the few industrialized nations without a government health care system. Yet they rarely note that the United States produces disproportional amounts of the new, life-saving drugs, largely because of the profits drug companies make."
True. Correct me if I'm wrong, but countries such as Finland, Sweden and Denmark also produce a disproportionate amount of drugs. It's harder to tell because all together they only have a population of about 18 million versus the US's 290 million or so, but per capita I think they're right up there.
I suspect conservatives might see these places as silly little socialist countries, but the fact is that, though their governments play unbelievably (to American ears) huge roles in their public's lives, they combine it with a quite vibrant version of Capitalism. The result has its strengths and weaknesses, but so does the American system. Health care-wise it's a trade off between:
1. National health care
Plusses: Lifelong availability to everyone. Treatment never costs anything. Many medicines are discounted in price. Many countries also have a parallel, private system for those who prefer its advantages.
Minusses: Waiting lists, though only for those operations that can wait. Less personal (though not necessarily lower quality) treatment.
2. Private health care
Plusses: Very high quality treatment exists. Extremely innovative. More personalized service.
Minusses: Prohibitively high costs for a very significant part of the population, resulting in a large percentage of the population without access to health care or medicine.
The US has chosen one way; most of the rest of the world has chosen the other. I'm not saying that one system is better, but clearly the world in general prefers the nationalized route.
Is nationalized health care right for the US? I don't know. What I can say is that I'm American, but I live in Spain, and after having experienced both of the systems in question, I prefer the way they do it here. I like knowing that I and everyone else around me can have anything from a routine check up to brain surgery if necessary and not pay a penny for it. I like the fact that my asthma medication costs me 10% of what it would cost me in the US. And I also like the fact that there is that parallel private system in place (paid for via insurance, just like in the US) which I can turn to if -- and only if -- I so decide.
That's my take. I could elaborate, but I'd like to hear what you guys think first.
Biggo anti-socialized medicine BUMP!
As I read through the posts here, I see a lot of faith in the free market to single-handedly solve our problems.
I know this faith is typically conservative, but it just sounds so naive to me. Though it does lots of things very well, Capitalism is not perfect. Surely even conservatives recognize its inherent tendency to produce inequality, for example. How do they propose dealing with this?
(If this is off topic, can someone please direct me to the appropriate forum?)
This thing is really simple once you break it down. Taxpayers pay the bill, but ANYONE, taxpayer or not gets free medical.
What happens when taxpayer needs medical? He gets substandard care and waits a DAMN long time to get it. Because his need now comes second to the people who dont pay taxes...actually probably are already TAKING taxes from other avenues..and who are taking all the "free" healthcare that taxpayer is paying for...clogging up the system.
Great freaking deal for taxpayer huh?? Where can I sign up to screw myself like that???
This thing is really simple once you break it down. Taxpayers pay the bill, but ANYONE, taxpayer or not gets free medical.
What happens when taxpayer needs medical? He gets substandard care and waits a DAMN long time to get it. Because his need now comes second to the people who dont pay taxes...actually probably are already TAKING taxes from other avenues..and who are taking all the "free" healthcare that taxpayer is paying for...clogging up the system.
Great freaking deal for taxpayer huh?? Where can I sign up to screw myself like that???
And no incentive to innovate and find better ways to do things.
Socialized medicine CANNOT be a "right" because nobody has the right to someone else's time. Doctors cannot be forced to treat any patient in a free society, and that is exactly what the socialized medicine crowd thinks is legit. Sort of an extension of the "right to counsel".
Not to mention, when there are no profits to be made by being a doctor, what are we going to be left with in the operating rooms?
As I'm sure even Kerry knows, though he'll never admit it, the biggest problem facing our medical system is the frivolous lawsuits, like the ones exploited by John (there are two Americas, and I've been in both) Edwards.
An old story that used o make the rounds about socialised medicine in the U.S.S.R. was that there were no abortions; a wag quipped, "That's because there's a 10-month wait."