Posted on 09/27/2004 11:40:43 PM PDT by Robert Lomax
The U.S. has no plans to deploy troops along the Mexican border to stanch the deluge of illegal aliens currently pouring into the country at the rate of 3 million per year, President Bush said in an interview broadcast on Monday.
"As the governor of Texas, I was very aware of this issue," Bush told Fox News Channel's Bill O'Reilly.
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"There is a long border, that makes it hard to control. We have beefed up places along the border to try to stop" the flow, he said. When told that his policy didn't seem to be working, Bush insisted, "It’s working a little better.
"They're doing a pretty good job down in Arizona, which is the main border crossing. ... I think there's a thousand more border patrol agents along the border. We’re modernizing border techniques, we’re using better surveillance methods to stop this crossing at the border."
The president contended, however, that illegal immigration was driven primarily by the economic realities of the region.
"If you can make 50 cents in the interior of Mexico and five bucks in the interior of the United States, you're coming for the five bucks," he explained.
"I happen to believe the best way to enhance the border is to have temporary-worker cards available for people," he said. "I think the long-term solution for this issue on our border is for Mexico to grow a middle class. That's why I believe in NAFTA."
When warned that "a lot of people are not going to like that answer," Bush told O'Reilly, "Well it’s a, a truthful answer."
The technology we have that can protect our shores is awsome.
OK, duty done.
Now, JimRob, you know that I feel just as strongly about FedGov IDs and all the rest as you do. Yet, I ALSO feel just as strongly that our borders need closing and illegals already here need evicting. And employers need motivation to not hire them... like going to prison if they do... yet how can we reconcile all of these (possibly) conflicting goals in a manner consistent with re-becoming a free nation again?
My proposal is that we institute a COMPLETELY VOLUNTARY program, probably funded by employers and run privately, wherein you or I, as job seekers, go to an office and, after properly identifying ourselves as someone who is properly eligible to work here (similar to, but not unlike going to a Notary) and put a biometric identifier (retinal scan or whatever) into a database. Then when we go to apply for a job, the employer does the scan and hits enter. What comes back is one of four possible responses: eligible (citizen); eligible (green card); eligible (work permit); or not on file. Names and other information are NOT input or linked to the database. Only in the office where we did the scan is the identifying information held. If we are not on file, we would have to show birth certs or green cards or work permits, just as now. And NO government agency may have any access to the database for any reason other than during a criminal investigation and with a proper warrant specifying WHOSE information they want, if it is on file. No fishing expeditions, no browsing and no other access. Identifying information would have to be stored on a separate server in each office which does NOT have any connections to the internet or anything but a secure local network. Only the local office you or I go to has this information. Security for it would be maintained as if at an NSA secure facility (almost).
Would this (or something like it) satisfy your objections?
See post 943...
We'll figure it out a few years before Civil War 2.
The only legacy we can hope to pass to our children is marksmanship etc. If not, they will perish.
Something that is not widely reported in the West is that South Korea now has its own immigration problems. They're coming in from China, Vietnam, and other points of SE Asia. I was recently talking to a Korean friend of mine who told me that the Russian mob has shoot outs in the streets of Pusan. The Russian, Korean, Japanese, and Chinese mobs cooperate on human smuggling.
OK, your right they don't have 3000K streaming across their border, but in a country of 40 million living in an area the size of New Jersey the problem in Korea is quite significant. Korea's decision to send troops the the sand pit is not just about kissin' up to the good ol' U.S. of A.
In ANY case. However, the alternative will be even messier.
The future dominant electorate will enforce anti-constitutionalism, philosphical One-Worldism, cultural anarchy, and selective law enforcement.
IOW, CWII will only be a matter of time.
I just don't see the big deal here. This is now. Reality. We can fix this with the tools we now have in place. Make the now voluntary Employee Verification System, compulsory.
It simply will eliminate well over half of the problem overnight.
With the sudden deluge of Illegals seeking under the table employment the pay-rate would drop further than it is now. Many would leave on their own.
Now, if on top of this we manage to get a Fair tax scheme in place during Bush's next four years, the NST would remove nearly all financial incentive for Illegals to come.
I don't think our military would just start shooting people like you seem to think --- If the border were to be patrolled by the military in the more dangerous sections of it --- it would be because the border in those parts are already quite dangerous --- and people are already being shot --- and where violent criminals are coming over.
I'm totally opposed to a federal ID system of any kind. I'm 100% for working as hard as we can to reverse the wrongs that have already been done, ie, abolish the income tax, social security, medicare, and 100's of other unconstitutional socialist government programs that have been forced on us over the last 100 years or so by an out of control constantly expanding federal government.
I'm going to ramble on a bit and haven't really thought this through, so bear with me:
My short term goal is to keep the liberals (Marxists) out of power at least long enough to get rid of most of the liberal activist judges. This would give us a leg up in our longer term goals of returning our Republic to the constitutionally limited form of representative government as intended and established by the Founding Fathers.
I believe in self-government. Self-government means we practice self-constraint and self-reliance. In other words, we do not depend on government to feed, house, clothe, secure our retirements, insure our good health, or pat our fannies, etc, etc, etc.
It also means we enjoy our God-given freedom with a minimum amount of government intrusion. It means we are responsible law abiding citizens. We don't rob, steal, cheat, murder or otherwise cause harm or damage to our fellow citizens, and we don't do this due to government or restrictive law, we do it because of our own deeply held religious beliefs, or sense of responsibilty, ethics, civility, duty or honor, etc. No one forces us to do the right thing.
Now understanding that self-government only works for a moral people (and none of us are perfectly moral or without sin), we have consented to a minimal amount of representative government and empowered it with a very limited amount of power to make and enforce the constitutionally proper laws necessary to maintain order and keep the peace. But that does not excuse us from our moral and civic responsibilities.
I personally feel it is an insult and a violation of my constitutional right to privacy and individual security to have to show my papers or have my fingerprints or retinal scans stored in some government database. Same thing if I'm a responsible law-abiding employer. I do not want to be forced to enforce such unconstitutional intrusions against my employees.
Self-government and free-markets work hand in hand. And whether we're dealing in trade or labor, I feel self-government and free-markets work best. Our constitution empowers the Congress to regulate immigration and charges the federal government with the duty to control our borders.
Historically, great efforts have been made to control both the quantity and quality of immigrants. I see nothing wrong with continuing that tradition. There is always a demand for seasonal or unskilled entry level labor or even in some cases highly specialized or even professional skills that opens plenty of opportunity to foreign workers.
Again, this is an area that our congress must regulate and control and I can see how that would be best managed with input and cooperation from both labor organizations and private business sectors. Programs and quotas should be set and implemented on a seasonal and regional basis to recruit and import qualified and suitable temporary foreign workers or in some cases permanent immigrants where necessary.
And as the labor markets and demands decrease as seasons end and or as other free-market factors fluctuate, then the temporary workers must go home.
I'd say as long as there is a demand for labor that cannot be filled locally then we should be flexible enough to recruit from Mexico or wherever we can. I can see an orderly, ie, regulated, but market flexible temporary worker program being developed that would be simple enough, fair enough, attractive enough, and much safer to the foreign workers than risking desert crossings, etc, that it would automatically cut back on illegal immigration.
The demand for labor is here. The supply is obviously there. We just need an orderly system developed to match supply and demand and control it. Make order out of the currently chaotic labor markets and that would solve much of our illegal immigrant problem. And would free the border security forces to defend our borders against smugglers, criminals, terrorists and other more dangerous national security risks.
And, it would not require the rest of us to enter into some Orwellian federal identification system. The necessity of a voluntary ID system would be borne by the immigrant coming through the system. And I do believe most of the employers would appreciate and take advantage of such a system. The immoral or unethical employer might try to recruit illegal labor, but I think eventually their competitors and or others would notice and pressure would be brought to bear. That's part of the self-government factor.
I know. I know. Naive and Pollyannish. LOL
The key to the solution, IMNHO, is to make it easier for all concerned to be legal instead of illegal.
We had a guest worker program until 1965. We didn't have a significant illegal alien problem until 1965. I submit the two are connected.
The point is how do we stop people coming illegally? Just because we issue say 5 million temp worker permits a year doesn't mean the other 6 million people who want in are going to say, "oh well US is full up maybe next year". No, they are going to come across the border on their own. Which puts us right back where we are now.
I've been imagining a mexican worker calling home "Si, Mama, you wouldn't believe it. Down there, we are treated as peasants. Here, they must show respect to ME. WE tell the Yanqui what he must do and he does it. It is the craziest thing. If he dares come with the border patrol, we call our leader and he takes care of it."
Let's just say that you won the debate because I don't even know what in the hell you are talking about anymore.
You've called me a bunch of names, now you're "kicking me to the curb", okay ... you've convinced me. I'm 100% wrong. My opinion is almost always swayed by such tactics.
Forgive my ignorance. I began to suspect I was wrong when you called me a NUTJOB (in all caps no less), and when you called me a "punk", I realized that nobody who used such tactics could be anything other that correct. The logic was simply indisputable. The "DemoRAT" was the real wakeup call. The Ad-hominems made me see where I where you were right, and where I was clealy, clearly mistaken.
Whew, that was a real eye opener. Thank you for pointing out the error in my logic.
I shall now fight to open the borders.
(I simply can't figure out why the illegal lobby just doesn' t simply call everyone "punks" and sway them to their side of the debate in a similar manner.)
Looking that way isn't it? And it could be easily prevented, yet the obvious actions are not being enacted.
This is the most important and serious time in our lives and you guys are screwing around.
Mexican interlopers are coming through Cochise County, AZ because the barren desert is their last entry.
I'll hang with my take on you and your dismal pals. Everyone here knows the jerks are going to amp up their anti-Bush agitprop this next 33 days.
Well, for seasonal farm workers and or unskilled workers, I think the foreign workers would be required to register for work when they apply to come across the border. And their employment would be brokered by licensed labor contractor services. The employers that need foreign labor would go through the labor contractors. The contractors would be responsible for transporting the workers to and from the border stations and to and from the job sites and also for assisting the foreign workers with temporary housing and other needs. The employers would not pay the foreign workers directly, they would be billed for labor services by the contractors who in turn would pay the workers. The employer would not need to collect any information whatsoever from the foreign worker and it would keep his labor management/compliance costs and risks down.
And this would be a much safer, more economical, more reliable and more convenient system for the foreign workers. I think there would be plenty of incentives for the workers to take advantage of the system rather than risk illegal border crossings, roundup and deportation. I also believe that the legal workers would spot illegals very easily and would assist in getting them into the program if practical or out of the country.
BTW, I see on another thread you've officially withdrawn your support for George W. Bush come November 2.
That's shocking.
Another was it they submit fraudulent documentation to obtain what the social security believes to be authentic because the social secutity doesn't take the time or have the resources to verify.
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