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To: zimdog
1) Don't blame me for not reading post #3. I didn't report it.

Your credibility is not enhanced by admitting you commented on something you didn't read.

2) Whether or not there were "Americans" in the 16th and 17th centuries depends in part on your degree of loyalty to the British crown at the time, so I'll give you that.

There were no Americans then, only Indians. Loyalty to the Crown had nothing to do with citizenship. It is not possible to be a citizen of a country that doesn't exist. To insist that Americans were involved in the slave trade 200 years before America existed is to admit that personal agenda is more important than the truth.

Many African slave traders were Muslims. Many were not. The question is not the religion of the slavers, but the religion of the slaves, and yes, it is common knowledge that many of them professed the Muslim faith and continued to practice it after being dragged across the Atlantic.

And your documented source for this is? Where are the descendants of these muslim slaves? Where are the mosques they built? I smell a Dan Rather here.

Prove me wrong.

The burden of proof is on the new fairy tale. You made the incredible assertions, back them up. In order to earn the right to be believed, one first has to earn the right to be heard. Are you Louis Farrakhan?

71 posted on 09/23/2004 6:27:40 AM PDT by Dataman
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To: Dataman; nuconvert


2) "There were no Americans then, only Indians. Loyalty to the Crown had nothing to do with citizenship. It is not possible to be a citizen of a country that doesn't exist. To insist that Americans were involved in the slave trade 200 years before America existed is to admit that personal agenda is more important than the truth."

Americans most certainly existed before 1776, perhaps as settlers, perhaps as colonists, but certainly they were there. Crown subjects in the American colonies were known as "American colonists" and often just "Americans". To suggest that the word had no meaning before the United States of America's independence is ridiculous.

3) "New fairy tale?" Hardly. If my credibility if not enhanced by admitting I commented on something that I COULDN'T read, your credibility is questioned by the fact that you DIDN'T read (or even do a Google search for) anything about Muslims slaves in America.

Many Muslism claimed outwardly to convert to Christianity but maintained their faith. Others lived openly as Muslims, althouth their children or grandchildren converted to Christianity. It is incontrovertable, however, that they were taken from Africa as Muslims and came to these shores as Muslims.

Here are some books you can read. If you smell a Dan Rather, it will take a little more work to disprove all of these.

Alford, Terry. Prince among Slaves: The Story of an African Prince Sold in the American South. New York: Oxford University Press, 1977

Austin, Allan. African Muslims in Antebellum America: A Sourcebook. New York: Garland Publishing Inc., 1984 (2nd ed. New York: Routledge, 1997)

Cornelius, Janet Duitsman. When I Can Read My Title Clear: Literacy, Slavery and Religion in the Antebellum South. Columbia: University of South Carolina Press, 1992

Diouf, Sylviane. Servants of Allah: African Muslims Enslaved in the Americas. New York: New York University Press, 1998.

Dwight, Theodore. "Condition and Character of Negroes in Africa." In The People of Africa: A Series of Papers on their Character, Condition, and Future Prospects, edited by Henry Schieffelin New York: A.D.F. Randolf, 1871

Freyre, Gilberto. The Masters and the Slaves. Berkeley: University of California Press, 1986

Michael A. Gomez. Exchanging Our Country Marks: The Transformation of African Identities in the Colonial and Antebellum South. Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press, 1998.

Michael Johnson, "Runaway Slaves and the Slave Communities in South Carolina, 1799 to 1830," William and Mary Quarterly 38, 3 (July, 1981): 437

Judy, Ronald A.T. Disforming the American Canon: African-Arabic Slave Narratives and the Vernacular.

Koszegi, Michael A. and J. Gordon Melton. Islam in North America: A Sourcebook.

Reis, Joao Jose. Slave Rebellion in Brazil: The Muslim Uprising of 1835 in Bahia. Baltimore: John Hopkins University Press, 1993

3) I am making factual assertions, not incredible ones. Your claim that not a single Muslim was enslaved in West Africa -- a region with a thousand-year history of Islam -- and sent to America in 350 years of the Trans-Atlantic slave trade is incredible and, frankly, an insult to American history. Are you an Europhile that dismisses the United States as "a country without history"?


72 posted on 09/23/2004 8:16:41 AM PDT by zimdog
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