Posted on 09/21/2004 10:57:16 AM PDT by GIJoel
It was an invitation for you to do so. I have read the Bible many times. There are calls to kill, but not to murder all who refuse to convert.
I was actually planning on going to a seminary. Had the money, and interviews and everything.
And then I REALLY started doing some reading and decided against THAT and gave up Christianity for Lent.
I'm glad you decided not to go. It appears you did not understand what you read.
If I was GOING to choose a main-stream religion, I'd be a Jew, but a bunch of that would be out of sympathy and solidarity for Israel, so i do not. .
Good idea. You should choose what you believe, not what you like politically.
Yes, both Christian and Judaism EVOLVED.
We don't have Crusades being launched with the Pope's blessing in order to glom onto land and resources, old ladies aren't being burned at the stake, Jews aren't being forced to live in ghettos and children on Indian reservations aren't having their names changed and being forced to convert to Christianity or forbidden to speak their native languages.
True, but not because the religions evolved. Before there were Crusaides there were Christians who refused to join the army and who refused to fight in the games. People have and will continue to misunderstand what G-d has said. That doesn't mean the religion has changed.
G-d doesn't change. But people change all the time.
Shalom.
I welcome this move by Muslims, but I am left to question its sincerity considering that it took over 3 years following the 9/11 attacks and 32 years following the Munich terrorist attacks for this "condemnation" to come.
At this late hour, the only thing the Islamic world can do to convince me that they no longer support terrorism would be their unequivocal, harsh, and very public ejection of all terrorists and terror-sympathizers from their mosques.
In short, until they start turning in the jackals in their own faith, they will forever be regarded as pseudo-religious consorts to those jackals. It's that simple.
The peaceful, rational view of the Iraq war.
by Harun Yahya The plan for the Iraq war, which has erupted in the face of opposition from the entire world, was drawn up at least decades ago, by Israeli strategists. In its attempt to realize its strategy of destablizing or dividing the Middle Eastern Arab states, Israel has Egypt, Syria, Iran and Saudi Arabia on its list of subsequent targets. As these lines are being written, the United States of America has begun striking at Iraq. Despite the fact that most countries of the world, and even the majority of the USA’s allies, opposed it, the US administration was determined for the strike to go ahead. When we look behind the scenes of this insistence, it is Israel, solely responsible for the bloodshed and suffering in the Middle East since the beginning of the twentieth century, which emerges. The state of Israel’s policy aimed at the fragmentation of Iraq has lengthy historical roots… Israel’s Plans to Divide Iraq The report titled "A Strategy for Israel in the Nineteen Eighties," by the Department of Information’s Hebrew-language magazine Kivunim (Directions), aimed at making the whole of the Middle East a living space for Israel. The report, drawn up by Oded Yinon [1], an Israeli journalist and formerly attached to the Foreign Ministry of Israel, set out the scenario of the "division of Iraq" in these terms: Iraq, rich in oil on the one hand and internally torn on the other, is guaranteed as a candidate for Israel's targets. Its dissolution is even more important for us than that of Syria… Iraq is, once again, no different in essence from its neighbors, although its majority is Shi'ite and the ruling minority Sunni. Sixty-five percent of the population has no say in politics, in which an elite of 20 percent holds the power. In addition there is a large Kurdish minority in the north, and if it weren't for the strength of the ruling regime, the army and the oil revenues, Iraq's future state would be no different than that of Lebanon in the past… In Iraq, a division into provinces along ethnic/religious lines as in Syria during Ottoman times is possible. So, three (or more) states will exist around the three major cities: Basra, Baghdad and Mosul, and Shi'ite areas in the south will separate from the Sunni and Kurdish north. [1] We believe there is little need to recall how this scenario was partially implemented after the 1991 Gulf War, with Iraq being effectively, if not officially, divided into three parts. The fact that the US plan for the occupation of Iraq, which is on the agenda at the time of writing, could again spark off such a division, is a concrete threat. Israel’s Role in the Gulf War The implementation of the Israeli strategy goes back to 1990. Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait in a sudden attack on August 1, 1990, giving rise to an international crisis. Israel headed the list of those forces which encouraged that crisis. Israel was the fiercest supporter of the attitude adopted by the United States in the wake of the invasion of Kuwait. The Israelis even regarded the United States as moderate, and wanted a harsher policy. To such an extent in fact that the President of Israel Chaim Herzog recommended that the American use nuclear weapons. On the other hand, the Israeli lobby in the United States was working to bring about a wide-ranging attack on Iraq. This whole situation encouraged the idea in the United States that the attack against Iraq under consideration was actually planned in Israel’s interests. The well-known commentator Pat Buchanan summarised this idea in the words "There are only two groups that are beating the drums for war in the Middle East – the Israeli Defense Ministry and its amen corner in the United State."[2] Israel had also initiated a serious propaganda campaign on the issue. Since this campaign was largely waged in secret, Mossad also entered the equation. Former Mossad agent Victor Ostrovsky provides important information on this subject. According to Ostrovsky, Israel had wanted to wage war with the United States against Saddam long before the Gulf crisis. So much so in fact, that Israel began to implement the plan immediately after the Iran-Iraq war. Ostrovsky reports that Mossad’s Psychological Warfare department (LAP – LohAma Psicologit) set about an effective campaign using disinformation techniques. This campaign was aimed at representing Saddam as a bloody dictator and a threat to world peace. (Victor Ostrovsky, "The Other Side of Deception: A Rogue Agent Exposes the Mossad's Secret Agenda", pp. 252-254). A Mossad Agent Describes the Gulf War Ostrovsky describes how Mossad used agents or sympathisers in various parts of the world in this campaign and how, for example, Amnesty International or "volunteer Jewish helpers (sayanim)" in the US Congress were brought in. Among the tools employed in the campaign were the missiles launched against civilian targets in Iran during the Iran-Iraq war. As Ostrovsky makes clear, Mossad’s later use of these missiles as a propaganda tool was quite peculiar, since those missiles had actually been directed towards their targets by Mossad, with the help of information from US satellites. Having supported Saddam throughout his war with Iran, Israel was now trying to portray him as a monster. Ostrovsky writes: The Mossad leaders know that if they could make Saddam appear bad enough and a threat to the Gulf oil supply, of which he'd been the protector up to that point, then the United States and its allies would not let him get away with anything, but would take measures that would all but eliminate his army and his weapons potential, especially if they were led to believe that this might just be their last chance before he went nuclear. (Victor Ostrovsky, "The Other Side of Deception: A Rogue Agent Exposes the Mossad's Secret Agenda", p. 254) [3] The Israelis were so determined on this matter, and with regard to the United States, that on August 4, 1990, Israeli Foreign Minister David Levy issued a diplomatically worded threat to William Brown, the American ambassador to Israel, stating that Israel "expects the U.S. will fulfill all of the goals it set for itself at the beginning of the gulf crisis," in other words that it attack Iraq. According to Levy, if the United States failed to do so, Israel would act unilaterally. [4] It would be of enormous benefit to Israel to have the United States engage in the war and for Israel to remain entirely uninvolved: and that is indeed what happened. Israel Forces the USA to War However, the Israelis were actively involved in the United States’ war plans. Some US staff officers involved in planning Operation Desert Storm received fine tactical advice from the Israelis that "the best way of wounding Saddam was to strike at his family." The Mossad-inspired propaganda campaign reported by Ostrovsky set up the necessary public backing for the Gulf War. It was again Mossad local assistants who lit the touchpaper for the war. The Hill and Knowlton lobbying firm, run by Tom Lantos of the Israeli lobby, prepared a dramatic scenario to convince members of Congress on the subject of war against Saddam. Turan Yavuz, a noted Turkish journalist, describes the incident: October 9, 1990. The Hill and Knowlton lobbying firm organises a sitting in Congress on the subject of "Iraq’s Barbarities." A number of "eye witnesses" brought to the session by the lobbying firm maintain that Iraqi troops killed new-born babies in the hospital wards. One "eye witness" describes the savagery in enormous detail, saying that Iraqi soldiers killed 300 new-born babies in one hospital alone. This information deeply disturbs the members of Congress. This works to President Bush’s advantage. However, it later emerges that the eye witness brought by Hill and Knowlton to Congress is in fact the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador to Washington. Nevertheless, the daughter’s account is sufficient for members of Congress to give Saddam the nickname "Hitler". (Turan Yavuz, ABD’nin Kürt Kartı (The US’ Kurdish Card), p. 307) This leads to just one conclusion: that Israel played an important role in the United States’ to wage its first war on Iraq. The second one is not much different. The Pretext of "War Against Terrorism" Contrary to popular belief, the plan to attack Iraq and overthrow Saddam Hussein’s regime by force was prepared and placed on Washington’s agenda long before the environment of the "fight against terror," which emerged in the wake of September 11. The first indication of this plan emerged in 1997. A group of pro-Israeli strategists in Washington began to put forward the scenario of the invasion of Iraq by manipulating the "neo-con" think-tank, called PNAC (Project for The New American Century). The most notable names in the PNAC were those of Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney, who as defense secretary and vice-president would be the most influential figures in the George W. Bush administration. An article titled "Invading Iraq Not a New Idea for Bush Clique: 4 Years Before 9/11 Plan Was Set" [5] written by William Brunch and published in the Philadelphia Daily News, sets out the following facts: But in reality, Rumsfeld, Vice President Dick Cheney, and a small band of conservative ideologues had begun making the case for an American invasion of Iraq as early as 1997 – nearly four years before the Sept. 11 attacks and three years before President Bush took office. An obscure, ominous-sounding right-wing policy group called Project for the New American Century, or PNAC – affiliated with Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rumsfeld's top deputy Paul Wolfowitz and Bush's brother Jeb – even urged then-President Clinton to invade Iraq back in January 1998. (William Bunch, Philadelphia Daily News, Jan. 27, 2003) [5] Is Oil the Real Objective? Why were the PNAC members so determined to overthrow Saddam? The same article continues: While oil is a backdrop to PNAC's policy pronouncements on Iraq, it doesn't seem to be the driving force. [Ian] Lustick, [a University of Pennsylvania political science professor and Middle East expert,] while a critic of the Bush policy, says oil is viewed by the war's proponents primarily as a way to pay for the costly military operation. "I'm from Texas, and every oil man that I know is against military action in Iraq," said PNAC's Schmitt. "The oil market doesn't need disruption." Lustick believes that a more powerful hidden motivator may be Israel. He said Bush administration hawks believe that a show of force in Iraq would somehow convince Palestinians to accept a peace plan on terms favorable to Israel… (William Bunch, "Invading Iraq not a new idea for Bush clique" Philadelphia Daily News, Jan. 27, 2003) [5] This, therefore, is the principal motivation behind the plan to attack Iraq: to serve Israel’s Middle East strategy. This fact has also been identified by other Middle East experts. Cengiz Çandar, a Turkish Middle East expert, for instance, describes the real power behind the plan to attack Iraq thus: .....Who is directing the attack on Iraq? Vice-President Dick Cheney, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld, National Security Adviser Condoleeza Rice. These are the "senior level" backers of the attack. Yet the rest of the iceberg is even richer and more interesting. There are a number of "lobbies." Heading these lobbies are the Jewish Institute for Security Affairs team, pro-Likud and Israeli-right and known for their close relations with US arms manufacturers. These have close relations with the "arms lobby," Lockheed, Northrop, General Dynamics and Israeli military industries ... JINSA’s fundamental principle is this: America’s and Israel’s security are inseparable. In other words, they are the same thing. JINSA’s objective is not solely the overthrow of the Saddam regime in Iraq: it also supports the overthrow of the Saudi Arabian, Syrian, Egyptian and Iranian regimes with a logic of "total war," and the subsequent importation of "democracy." ... In other words, a number of American Jews on the same wavelength as the most extreme factions in Israel at the moment comprise the hawks in Washington. (Cengiz Çandar, "Iraq and the ‘Friends of Turkey’ American Hawks", Yeni Şafak, September 3, 2002.) Israel’s Project of "Secret World Domination" In short, there are those in Washington who are encouraging a war aimed first at Iraq and then at Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iran and Egypt. The most distinguishing feature of these is that they are lined up alongside, and even equivalent to, the "Israeli lobby." No matter how much they speak of "American interests," these people are actually supporting Israeli interests. A strategy of waging war against the whole of the Middle East and turning all the peoples of the region against it cannot be to the United States’ advantage. The adoption of such a strategy can only be possible if the United States is bound to Israel, by means of the Israeli lobby, which is unbelievably influential in the country’s foreign policy. It is for these reasons that behind the strategy which began to be set in motion after September 11 and is aimed at re-arranging the entire Islamic world, lies Israel’s secret plan for "world domination." Ever since its foundation, Israel has aimed at restructuring the Middle East, making it manageable and no threat to itself. It has been using its influence in the United States for that purpose in recent years, and to a large extent directs Washington’s Middle East policy. The post-September 11 climate gave Israel the opportunity it had been seeking. Pro-Israeli ideologues who for years had been propounding the falsehood that Islam itself — not some militant radicals who use Islam as a shelter — posed a threat to the West and the United States, and who encouraged the mistaken concept of a "clash of civilisations," have been trying to incite the United States against the Islamic world in the wake of September 11. As early as 1995, Israel Shahak of the Jerusalem Hebrew University wrote former Israeli Prime Minister Rabin’s obsession with "the idea of an Israeli-led anti-Islamic crusade". Nahum Barnea, a commentator from the Israeli newspaper Yediot Ahronot, stated that same year that Israel was making progress "[to] become the Western vanguard in the war against the Islamic enemy." (Israel Shahak, "Downturn in Rabin’s Popularity Has Several Causes", Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, March 1995.) [6] All that has happened in the years which have followed is that Israel has made its intentions even clearer. The political climate in the wake of September 11 prepared the ground for this intention to be made a reality. The world is now witnessing the step by step implementation of Israel’s policy of the fragmentation of Iraq, planned decades ago. The Only Way to World Peace: An Islamic Union The situation may be summarised as follows: Israel’s aim is to restructure the Middle East in line with its own strategic interests. In order to do this, in order to rule the Middle East, one of the most sensitive regions in the world, it needs a "world power." That power is the United States; and Israel, thanks to its influence there, is trying to place a mortgage on that country’s Middle East policy. Although Israel is a small state with a population of only 4.5 million, the plans drawn up by Israel and its backers in the West are directing the whole world. What needs to be done in the face of this? "Counter lobby activities" need to be adopted in the face of the Israeli lobby’s influence in the United States in order to develop dialogue between the United States and the Islamic world and to invite it to seek peaceful solutions to Iraq and similar problems. A wide section of the United States wish to see their country adopt a fairer Middle East policy. Many statesmen, strategists, journalists and intellectuals have expressed this, and a "peace between civilisations" movement must be carried forward in cooperation with them. The approach inviting the US administration to peaceful solutions must be carried forward at governmental and civil society organisation level. Alongside all this, a deeper rooted solution lies in a project which can resolve all the problems between the Islamic world and the West and deal with the fragmentation, suffering and poverty in the Islamic world and totally alter it: An Islamic Union. [7] Recent developments have shown that the whole world, not just Islamic regions, stands in need of an "Islamic Union." This Union should heal the radical elements in the Islamic World, and establish good relations between Muslim countries and the West, especially the United States. It should also help to find a solution to the mother of all problems: The Arab-Israeli conflict. With Israel retreating to its pre-67 borders and Arabs recognizing its right to exist, there can be real peace in the Middle East. And Jews and Muslims — both Children of Abraham and believers in one true God — may peacefully co-exist in the Holy Land, as they have done during the past centuries. Then, Israel would need no strategy to destabilize or divide the Arab States. And it will not have to face the results of occupation in forms of terrorism and constant fear of annihilation. Then, both the Israeli and Iraqi (and Palestinian) children may grow up in peace and security. That is a Middle East that any sane person should work to see. Notes:
Harun Yahya is a prominent Turkish intellectual.
Those passages are from the Medina period when Mohammed had no power. Look at what he did later when he obtained power in Mecca.
Cordially,
Beware of wolves in sheep's clothing. AGREED! This is bunk!
They are a SHAM...What about the Stoning of Women the hate for destroying Israel Suicide bombers...
Actions speak louder than words....
The Religion called ISLAM is evil...
Family members Stone there sisters to death for divorce common what good does ISLAM do for this world..I agree some Muslims might be nice and peaceful but the religion
is the Devil's Work...
Very unoftunate, but not surprising. Muslims are often as irational about Israel as the Left is about George Bush. Israel will be a sticking point for Muslims until Jesus comes back.
There are many translations of the Quran that are cleaned up to protect the image. This page has a good explanation at the bottom.
http://www.prophetofdoom.net/quotes.html
Given the propensity for dissimulation by islamists toward non-muslims, I will have a difficult time accepting anything they say at face value.
If they deliver the corpses of bin laden, zawahari, zarqawi, the leader of the chechen terrorists, etc. then I will give them some credit.
I'll believe it when they rise up and cut off the heads of the headcutters that hang out in their mosques, madrassas and we no longer have well over a dozen nations being bled slowly by Muhammadanism...
Oh I'm NOT saying TRUST them.. or accept it at face-value!
( Too much water under THAT bridge! )
What i am saying is we should perhaps feel encouraged that a few of them are having the guts to speak out in public about what their co-religionists are doing!
Missy, I understand, and I KNOW you to be a nice, Christian lady.
Believe me, I am NOT making excuses for Islam or it's followers.
( I tell you true: i would not shed a tear if every last one vanished off the face of the earth TONIGHT! Too many have stayed quiet too long, and we do not have time to seperate the goats from the sheep)
How I started in this is to point out that SOME of them are being willing to stand up to the others and say, "No, this is WRONG".
Like i say, I have seen several such articals this last week.
More than i have seen since 9-11.
This to me, is a hopeful sign.
Too late. Get the hook.
I have no intention of being lulled into a false sense of security by a two year old internet posting.
If this line of thought had legs, we would have already seen some follow through.
With all due respect sir, that is convoluted bullcrap!
Let's stick our heads in the sand and believe the wholesome propaganda that the muslims want to dish out to us now. All muslims read from the same handbook, written by a perverted child molester that tells these filthy killers to cut our heads off, crash airliners into buildings and kill thousands of us at a time, shoot school kids in the back, rape the female students and even make them drink their own urine before killing them.
Sorry, no sale!!!!!
Sorry, Mister, that response should have been directed to GI Joe.
I am sorry that the last seven times we Americans took up arms and sacrificed the blood of our youth, it was in the defense of Muslims (Bosnia, Kosovo, Gulf War 1, Kuwait, etc.).
I am sorry that no such call for an apology upon the extremists came after 9/11.
I am sorry that all of the murderers on 9/11 were Arabs.
I am sorry that Arabs have to live in squalor under savage dictatorships. I am sorry that their leaders squander their wealth.
I am sorry that their governments breed hate for the US in their religious schools.
I am sorry that Yassir Arafat was kicked out of every Arab country and hijacked the Palestinian "cause."
I am sorry that no other Arab country will take in or offer more than a token amount of financial help to those same Palestinians.
I am sorry that the USA has to step in and be the biggest financial supporter of poverty stricken Arabs while the insanely wealthy Arabs blame the USA.
I am sorry that our own left wing elite and our media can't understand any of this.
I am sorry the United Nations scammed the poor people of Iraq out of the "food for oil" money so they could get rich while the common folk suffered.
I am sorry that some Arab governments pay the families of homicide bombers upon their death.
I am sorry that those same bombers are seeking 72 virgins. I can't seem to find one here on Earth.
I am sorry that the homicide bombers think babies are a legitimate target.
I am sorry that our troops died to free more Arabs.
I am sorry they show so much restraint when their brothers in arms are killed. I am sorry that Muslim extremists have killed more Arabs than any other group.
I am sorry that foreign trained terrorists are trying to seize control of Iraq and return it to a terrorist state.
I am sorry we don't drop a few dozen "Daisy Cutters" on Fallujah. (Note: a "Daisy Cutter" is a 10,000 lb bomb, used to clear helicopter landing zones)
I am sorry every time terrorists hide they find a convenient "Holy Site".
I am sorry they didn't apologize for driving a jet into the World Trade Center that collapsed and severely damaged Saint Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church - one of our Holy Sites.
I am sorry they didn't apologize for flight 93 and 175, the USS Cole, the embassy bombings, etc.
I am sorry Michael Moore is American; he could feed a medium sized village in Africa.
I am sorry the French are french?
America will get past this latest absurdity. We will punish those responsible because that is what we do. We hang out our dirty laundry for all the world to see. We move on. That's one of the reasons we are hated so much. We don't hide this stuff like all those Arab countries that are now demanding an apology.
Deep down inside, when most Americans saw this reported in the news, we were like - so what? We lost hundreds and made fun of a few prisoners. Sure, it was wrong, sure, it dramatically hurts our cause, but until captured we were trying to kill these same prisoners. Now we're supposed to wring our hands because a few were humiliated? Our compassion is tempered with the vivid memories of our own people killed, mutilated and burnt amongst a joyous crowd of celebrating Fallujans.
If you want an apology from this American, you're going to have a long wait. You have a better chance of finding those 72 virgins.
The header states that this is from 2002.
IslamDenouncesTerrorism.com ^ | August 1, 2002 | Harun Yahya
Perhaps GIJoel can shed some light on this discrepancy?
Look, I totally disagree with Islam as a religion. I believe there is only one Way, one Truth, and one Life...and Allah isn't it. I could say the same things about Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, etc. I'm talking about terrorism and geopolitics. Muslims are not just going to go away. There here till the end of the ages. And there are plenty of things to take issue with re: their religion. But I didn't post "Islam Denounces Terrorism" to debate theology. I posted it to show that there are people disguised as Muslims who carry out evil acts specifically forbidden in Islam. The people who justify and/or carry out these acts are the new "Liberation Theologists," except this time instead of the Communists pretending to be Catholic Priests, now they are posing as devout Muslims/Muslim clerics. If we are to avoid perishing for lack of knowledge, I suggest we start using our collective brains to more fully understand what's really at issue. For more info. on this topic check out Terrorists in Muslim Disguise and We Are The Next Target threads below:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1220747/posts
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1220737/posts
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