Posted on 09/19/2004 11:45:01 AM PDT by elfman2
True.
False. If you are committed to something that is not constructive, then you shouldn't stay the course.
I glad Conway is leaving.
here- ”It is so totally clear now that the Marines are making their OWN decisions, based on what they see on the ground, and are NOT some "puppets" on the Pentagon's string that to keep arguing that we are "not letting the Marines do their job" is laughable.
“BTW, this is exactly what my MARINE COUSIN told me was going to happen---that the very last option was to go into the city and have a big bloody battle. And, last I looked, the Marines had identified 28 baddies they needed to kill or capture . . .and have now killed or captured 27 of them. I'd call that effective. ‘
here- ”Let me add that I keep hearing from my Lt. Col. Marine cousin, who is now being recalled to Iraq, that in fact the Marines are using EXACTLY the right strategy and that everything has been pretty much as the MARINES (not Rummy or anyone else) planned.
“But elf or other "critics" who "know" what is happening behind the scenes won't be convinced by what the actual participants have to say.”
here - ”Don't need to discuss something with someone who is so far off base that he can't see home plate. Let me know when you are talking to Marines in theater.”
here- “Your "major papers" have been deconstructed ad nauseum. Give it up. You can no longer contort your unreality to fit the facts of Fallujah.”
here- ”The Times can be wrong, and obviously is. But, of course, that doesn't fit the template.”
All I noticed is that he DID NOT WANT TO ADVANCE IN THE FIRST PLACE, which is what I have said all along. This is not a winning scenario without massive "depopulation" via night fighers and air softening. (BTW, that is starting to occur now, and I think you'll see after our elections the Iraqis "request" that we go in and clean out Fallujah).
Then you need to read it again.
The order to attack Fallouja and the subsequent command to halt came down the chain of command from Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, the top officer on the ground at the time, Conway said. The Marines expressed objections but proceeded….[snip]I expected someone to talk some day, but not this soon. These statements are probably considered disloyal, especially as the war is raging. Perhaps he just didn’t want to see it repeated as we attempt to retake Fallujah (which is why I don’t let misunderstandings of it die here.)The attack, which began April 4, proceeded well, Conway said. "In three days we had taken a third of the city. We were quite happy with the progress…. We thought we were going to be done in two days."
Reports on Arab-language television of heavy civilian casualties inflamed the Arab world and caused consternation in Western capitals. But Conway said those reports were exaggerated — as were accounts of heavy U.S. casualties.
"Fallouja was not costing us greatly," said Conway, who said six Marines were killed in three days of fighting.
Then came the order to stop advancing. Conway indicated that he was stunned by the move. He suggested that the decision-makers had not quite understood the magnitude of their earlier directive to attack.
"I would simply say that when you order elements of a Marine division to attack a city, that you really need to understand what the consequences are, and not perhaps vacillate in the middle of something like that," Conway said. "Once you commit, you've got to stay committed."
I’m a strong Bush supporter, and have great respect for most of this war, except for this battle. People may disagree on how poorly or well it was lead, but I don’t want the issues to be misunderstood. This was not Marine strategy, and all published reports say that the order to halt the attack was under great pressure from people outside the military. I respect those who argue it was the right decision, but disagree with them. But I don’t respect mischaracterizations of how the decision was made when there is no public evidence to support them and all that’s available contradicts them.
The attack, which began April 4, proceeded well, Conway said. "In three days we had taken a third of the city. We were quite happy with the progress…. We thought we were going to be done in two days."It so “constructive” that people panicked. Several hundred insurgent deaths, with several hundred or several thousand to follow, shocked people who were unprepared for the destruction of war when both sides think they can win. And until we demonstrate greater political resolve, or at least defeat the insurgency, Fallujah inspires more terrorists and terrorist supporting nations to think that they can win.Reports on Arab-language television of heavy civilian casualties inflamed the Arab world and caused consternation in Western capitals. But Conway said those reports were exaggerated — as were accounts of heavy U.S. casualties.
"Fallouja was not costing us greatly," said Conway, who said six Marines were killed in three days of fighting.
You can think what you want, and unless you are a Marine, you can claim to "know" what Marine strat is. Until then, ciao.
Really? So you don’t believe the Marine in charge of a the assault on Fallujah when he says that he was overridden. Outgoing Lt. Gen. James T. Conway of I MEF, who was in charge of all the Marines in theater, is now lying to the press when he says he disagreed with the order from above to halt the attack?
Believe what you want.
I think that any rational person reading your last few posts here will come to the same belief.
I was there the day Sanchez came to town. I know what I think and it doesn't win me any friends on this forum. Sanchez made the USMC get out of their bunkers and quit hiding behind dirt. Perhaps he did it too early, but it took a lot of rank to get those guys into town. But then they were told to quit and that was wrong.
But hey, what would I know about it all? I'm not a marine.
Moreover, I don't know of ANY Marines (including top officers) who thought it a reasonable---let alone effective---use of lives and resources to engage in urban warfare in Fallujah. Instead, there is a long-term attrition movement, mostly facilitated by informants (see the book by Zinsmeister, "Dawn Over Baghdad"), air strikes, and night actions.
These are tremendously effective, but don't make a lot of "news" because it's not visually the same as "taking" a city block and setting up a check point.
I repeat my prediction---not based on any inside sources---that after OUR election, the Iraqis are going to request a joint action vs. Fallujah, but the Colonel on Fox today said they might even delay their own elections if that happens because it will damage Alawi for a while.
I do know that the commanders in theater have remarkable autonomy---and have had this autonomy from the beginning of the war---and that sometimes they do things that look, well, "cowardly," when, in fact, they are pretty smart (again, see Zinsmeister). It's actually an exercise in remarkable patience and common sense, and we will win, contrary to some of the scorched-earth types here who think we win only if Iraq is turned to glass.
Dang. Before I hit send I looked at what I had written and decided that I had pretty much violated good OPSEC. The stuff that doesn't make the papers, even the S&S and Navy Times is mindblowing in the context of it all. Sometimes I want to tell it, but I just can't. And I'm not even a true insider!
In case I wasn't clear in the last post, I erased what I was about to send. It really wouldn't do anyone any good and could cause harm.
The Blackwater incident was a poor reason to go into town. Those guys were told NOT to take that route. But they did anyway.
There is a huge amount of stuff going on under the news radar. The Marines know how to handle this. They CAN destroy the town, but that is the absolute last resort and an admission of defeat. The first choice would be to have a joint force, led by Iraqi Army units, move in and take down a much depleted ("attrited," in Schwartzkopf's words) force.
Sanchez was replaced.
Sanchez, Bremmer and and Conway are all gone now. But the plan to use precision attacks from the air while waiting...waiting for the Iraqi Brigades to come up to speed to do the dirty work -- continues.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.