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Amid Skepticism, CBS Sticks to Bush Guard Story (New info--CBS 'expert' looked at only 1 doc)
LA Times ^ | 9-11-04

Posted on 09/11/2004 1:21:29 AM PDT by ambrose

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To: ambrose

bttt


21 posted on 09/11/2004 2:29:07 AM PDT by ironman
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To: ambrose
"On Monday, the newly formed "Texans for Truth," a liberal advocacy group, plans to begin airing an ad in five closely fought states — Oregon, Arizona Ohio, Michigan, Pennsylvania — that features a retired member of the Alabama Air National Guard saying he never saw Bush appear for training in 1972.

"In just three days this week, the group said it had raised more than $400,000 from 5,000 contributors to air the ad.

"The group said many of its donors believed the Bush critique was justified after Republicans backed similar ads that said Kerry did not deserve some of the medals he won while in combat in Vietnam.

"To keep the issue alive, the group said it would announce a "substantial" reward on Tuesday to anyone who could offer proof that Bush fulfilled his service in the Alabama Air National Guard.

The whole purpose of Rather et al and the criticism of Bush's guard duty is based on the failure of Senator Kerry to answer the Swifties. He has answered not a one of the charges and Kerry and his colleagues are now reduced to trying to make the President look as dishonest as they are. This is impossible regardless of the authenticity of the documents in question. The President is an honorable and honest man.

22 posted on 09/11/2004 3:10:36 AM PDT by shrinkermd
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To: hershey
Yes but did those regs sited actually say to report for a physical. The Belmont Club debunked that yesterday.

The two memos refer to a flight physical and a flight review board, both IAW ("in accordance with") AFM 35-13. But that would stand for "Air Force Manual" 35-13, and manuals are guidelines only. They have no regulatory authority. No one takes a physical exam, flight or not, IAW a manual. ...

So I went there and discovered, sure enough, that there was an Air Force Regulation 35-13, but no AF Manual 35-13 is listed. AFR 35-13 was superceded in 1990 by AFI36-2605 (Air Force Instruction, i.e., the same as a regulation). So I Googled AFI36-2605 and voilá! Here it is. This instruction implements Air Force Policy Directive 36-26, Military Force Management, and Department of Defense Instruction (DODI) 7280.3, Special Pay for Foreign Language Proficiency. It prescribes all procedures for administering the Air Force Military Personnel Testing System and Foreign Language Proficiency Pay (FLPP) program. Which is to say, this publication has nothing to do with flight physicals.

From all this I conclude that the Killian-signed documents are forgeries, forged by someone without a very good knowledge of military correspondence or Air Force publications or procedures. Based on the Air Force's own online library of current and obsolete publications, I conclude that there never was an Air Force Manual 35-13, although there was an AF Regulation by that number. But a lieutenant colonel would never have made such a fundamental error as using "AFM" twice when he meant AFR.

The Shot Heard Around the World

23 posted on 09/11/2004 3:31:34 AM PDT by GailA ( hanoi john, I'm for the death penalty for terrorist, before I impose a moratorium on it.)
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To: ambrose
I read the whole article only to find this as the concluding statement:

Howard Rile of Long Beach, former president of the American Board of Forensic Document Examiners, cautioned against feverish vetting of the memos without seeing the originals and other documents produced at the same time and place.

That could be difficult because CBS says it does not have the original memos.

What? They don't have ANY originals? What jerks!!!

24 posted on 09/11/2004 3:31:36 AM PDT by ThirstyMan
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To: ambrose
Interview on FoxNews with a Air National Guard person - hit on the point that Staudt was retired before August 18, 1973, and the acronym "OETR" (referring to a repository) is wildly incorrect.

Just from a cursory reading, LA Times appears to be non-commital on the story at this point.

25 posted on 09/11/2004 3:42:12 AM PDT by Cboldt
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To: ambrose
Dan Rather Memogate is not going away quickly.
26 posted on 09/11/2004 4:10:57 AM PDT by Arrowhead1952 (Charter member of the VRWC - and proud of it.)
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To: GailA
Thanks for saving me some time. I am concluding that the author of these documents wanted them to be discovered as forgeries. One of those so-called 'forgery experts' (LOL!) said this Memo is authentic that ref. AFM 35-13, which I read on a thread. I was going to check on AFM 35-13 at an USAF Base Publication library.

Another thing that strikes me as odd about the '04 May 1972' Memorandum, is that routine medical appointments of this nature, even in 1972, were computer generated and sent out through the base distribution system.

27 posted on 09/11/2004 4:58:49 AM PDT by demlosers (53 days left until the Kerry campaign is put out of its misery.)
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To: conservative in nyc

that 60 Minutes didn't want him doing interviews.




WTF?????????? CiNY, do you have a link to this?

Gosh, this is like Kerry's Band of Brothers (tm) not giving interviews unless vetted by the campaign, isn't it?

Imagine that.


28 posted on 09/11/2004 6:23:11 AM PDT by reformedliberal (W stands for WINNER!)
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To: Cincinatus

McAuliff is the gift that keeps on giving.


29 posted on 09/11/2004 6:31:08 AM PDT by EDINVA
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To: reformedliberal
Links to Matley's WaPo Statement that 60 Minutes didn't want him doing interviews:

Original WaPo Freeper Thread (Posted by jhouston)
Washington Post
30 posted on 09/11/2004 6:31:53 AM PDT by conservative in nyc
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To: conservative in nyc

Thanx/bookmarked.

Will possibly be running into some Donk activists in the course of tonite's social activities (unless they decide to hide). Thankfully, the majority of those who will be present are supporting W.

I will pass on this source/info.


31 posted on 09/11/2004 6:52:06 AM PDT by reformedliberal (W stands for WINNER!)
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To: GailA
Hello,

Thanks for the info ~ I read about this yesterday. This (among other things) completely proves these "docs" are fake.

Glad to be here, MOgirl
32 posted on 09/11/2004 7:03:49 AM PDT by MOgirl (In memory of Walton Wayne Callahan, I love you forever.)
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To: ambrose
"McAuliffe suggested it might have been White House..."

Um, is that an admission that they are obvious forgeries? McAuliffe, please cc that transcendently obvious point to CBS News and the NYT. The DNC wouldn't be saying they must be from Rove if the DNC still honestly thought they were genuine.

33 posted on 09/11/2004 7:24:50 AM PDT by JasonC
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To: ambrose

Demand Dan Rather & CBS News Retraction
Tell Them to Admit Blame about Documents Exposed as Forgeries!

http://www.rightmarch.com/091004a.htm

ALERT: Reports are now exploding across newspapers, television and the internet that CBS News, led by blatantly biased Dan Rather, used forged documents during a "60 Minutes" segment Wednesday night in an incompetent attempt to smear President George W. Bush's National Guard service. Clearly phony, these "new" documents were easily debunked overnight by solid evidence from forensic document experts, typographers and retired military officers.

Closer examination quickly proved the supposedly 30-year-old documents were generated in a modern-day typeface from a printer, not a typewriter, negating CBS News' excuse that the documents were aired because they passed handwriting analysis.

Yet Dan Rather PUSHED to air the groundless smear in an obvious attempt to counter President Bush's jump in the polls. As evidence of fraud mounts, Rather and the network have refused to name their source OR their expert who supposedly "authenticated" the documents.

At BEST, Rather and the CBS News staff are guilty of gross incompetence by allowing their desire to smear the President outweigh their professional duty to properly check the facts. At WORST, CBS News may be guilty of deliberately reporting what they knew to be false, and engaging in libel and slander against the President of the United States during a time of war.

Americans nationwide need to DEMAND accountability from the media -- and we've set up an easy way for you to do just that.

TAKE ACTION: You can click through here to use (or edit) our online letter, demanding that CBS News release the name(s) of its sources and air a retraction as the documents are proved to be forgeries. Tell the network to drop its blatant anti-Bush bias and stop trying to sway the election with unethical and unprofessional "reporting."

Furthermore, IF anchor Dan Rather pushed this story because of his bias, he deserves to be FIRED -- so you might even want to ask CBS to dump him NOW and clean house, so that CBS News can offer fair and balanced reporting worthy of regaining public trust.

http://www.rightmarch.com/091004a.htm


34 posted on 09/11/2004 7:27:25 AM PDT by stevek1
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To: shrinkermd
Exactly. They planned on the charges running for a week, and then on high mindedly calling for everyone to cease fire on military records - and thus to get away from the Swiftees via moral equivalence and "reversal" rather than rebuttal. But they did not count on their reversal becoming a radioactive forgery case inside 24 hours.
35 posted on 09/11/2004 7:28:05 AM PDT by JasonC
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To: ambrose
Matley says he has concerns about authenticating a document that has deteriorated (link), yet he goes ahead and authenticates a memo. Now even though their expert has raised concerns about authenticating a document that has deteriorated, Rather says that he believes "[CBS's photocopied] documents are authentic" (link), and hasn't bothered to get the originals to check their authenticity.

"Matley was the only expert cited [by CBS], and he focused on signatures on the memos." (link)

"But in an interview with The Times, the analyst said he had only judged a May 4, 1972, memo in which Killian ordered Bush to take his physical to be authentic. He said he did not form a judgment on the three other disputed memos because they only included Killian's initials and he did not have validated samples of the officer's initials to use for comparison." [posted by ambrose and conservative in nyc]

Dan Rather is using handwriting expert (not typewriting expert) Marcel Matley to stall for time. [posted by Dog and post #8]

Matley has written an article about how to stall for time. The second line of Matley's article is... "How to hold off your opponent until the cavalry arrives" and in the last paragraph... "At least with the above you will have hopefully survived the day...". (link)

Matley says the memos were "so deteriorated from copying that it was impossible to identify the typeface", so he "focused on the signatures" instead. Wouldn't the signatures have deteriorated just as much, making it impossible to authenticate them properly. (link)
36 posted on 09/11/2004 7:29:20 AM PDT by igoramus987
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To: ambrose
Hey, Dan Rather! Your 60 minutes are up.
37 posted on 09/11/2004 7:32:27 AM PDT by Samwise (Kerry is a self-made man. He created a doofus.)
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To: All

Where were these supposed memos sitting for the last 30+ years? Killian's family apparently didn't have them. The Guard would never have archived something like that, much less kept it for 30 years. Who was holding these documents? And why only these documents? Do they come from some larger file of Killian's papers. If so, why doesn't CBS produce some contemporaneous documents for a fair validation? Dan?


38 posted on 09/11/2004 7:48:32 AM PDT by dano1
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To: ambrose
...in which Killian ordered Bush to take his physical — to be authentic.

It is obvious he was over his head. In the military it is "medical" not "physical"

That alone says it is fake.

39 posted on 09/11/2004 8:36:55 AM PDT by Dan(9698)
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To: ambrose

The whole problem with this will be the Sandy Berger Effect. The SBE means that a damning story erupts and simply gets ignored. That's what will happen here. It will be denied and soon ignored. Independent voters won't have a clue what went on, and all Rather has to say is that the challenges to his credibility are "partisan internet and talk radio" people, and the independent voter will understand that this is nothing.
So we must figure a way at FR not just to uncover this kind of thing, but to also carry it through to completion.


40 posted on 09/11/2004 8:38:26 AM PDT by Vinomori
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