Posted on 09/08/2004 12:13:14 PM PDT by Boundless
Despite Clinton's advice to drop the Vietnam
topic, Kerry and his subordinates continue to
hammer away at GW's ANG service. They need
to drop this, because a comparison of Bush and
Kerry on this topic is not flattering to Kerry.
This is what one voter has learned from digging
around a bit on this issue. Please check this over
and contribute corrections and suggestions.
| Bush | Kerry |
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| Not available in WW-II, college deferments began during the Korea War, along with deferments for other situations. The Selective Service even admitted during the Vietnam War that this was intentional, in an infamous document titled "Channeling". | |
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At onset of senior year, Bush apparently decided not to apply for post-grad deferment. Presumably, Bush was considering his alternatives from that point. |
At end of senior year, Kerry applied for post-grad deferment to study in Paris. It was denied. This didn't leave Kerry much time before a draft notice could be expected to arrive. |
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| Reserve enlistments were often seen as a way to avoid being cannon fodder in Vietnam, and the "safer" billets were consequently often hard to get. We'll get back to which was "safer". | |
| Bush has been accused of needing "pull" to get the ANG slot. There is no evidence to support this, but the legacy press isn't letting go of it. | The same press anxious to find a Bush story on this has made zero effort to discover if Kerry needed "help" to get into the USNR. |
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| Bush enlisted in the Texas Air National Guard, 147th Fighter Interceptor Group, in May of his senior year. | Kerry enlisted in the U.S. Navy Reserve, "Inactive Duty" in Feb of his senior year. Note - not the USN. The USNR. Both Bush and Kerry were reservists. |
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| What did the two candidates sign up for, exactly? | |
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The ANG 147th flew the F-102A, and only the F-102A. Bush could expect that if he made the grade, flying one is what he'd be doing. |
Kerry: "I didn't really want to get involved in the war,". Kerry's enlistment contract doesn't indicate his likely assignment upon call-up. Did he expect a deep-water billet far from the shooting? |
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| Signing up for pilot training in any service placed the enlistee at risk of going in harm's way. | Kerry, by the way, was already a pilot in college, and has said that he specifically avoided becoming a military pilot so as to not tarnish his love of flying. |
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The F-102A was being used in combat in Vietnam when Bush enlisted. My guess is that he had no reason to assume he'd spend his entire ANG career stateside. In addition to the risks during bomber escort, F-102A's were even used for an experimental ground-attack mission, firing their heat-seeking missiles at VC campfires. Apart from that, just flying F-102A was dangerous. The plane had a horrible safety record, with losses higher than for the later AV-8 Harrier. Possibly more F-102A pilots were lost due to accidents than were lost in combat in other contemporary a/c types. Several pilots in Bush' ANG unit were killed by this airplane. |
Kerry found himself serving in the deep-water Navy, on the USS Gridley. Although this ship was once briefly off the coast of Vietnam, it was never "in" Vietnam, and Kerry never went ashore during what he calls one of his two "tours" of Vietnam. Kerry evidently learned of Swift Boats during his Gridley service. PCFs were the closest thing the Navy had that was comparable to the PT Boats of WW-II. Did Kerry see this as part of his Destiny to be JFK-II? Anyway, here's Kerry on PCF's: "When I signed up for the swift boats, they had very little to do with the war. They were engaged in coastal patrolling and that's what I thought I was going to be doing." When Kerry applied for transfer, PCFs were doing "Market Time" coastal interdiction operations. By the time he completed his training, Zumwalt had expanded their scope to "SEALORD" ops, dangerous draw-fire up-river missions. Did Kerry have second thoughts about PCFs? There is an unconfirmed report that Kerry was 17 days late in reporting as ordered to Vietnam. His complaining about the SEALORD missions is recorded by the SBVFT. |
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| Past this point, numerous other sources are covering the respective stories. | |
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Bush signed up for hazardous service that turned out to be a bit less hazardous than he had reason to expect. The details of Bush's ANG service, after earning his wings, is beyond the scope of this article. |
Kerry signed up for service that turned out to be more hazardous than he appears to have intended. How Kerry managed to have such a short "tour" of Vietnam, and his actions and documentation there, are beyond the scope of this article. |
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| Q: Cheney? | A: Edwards |
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From one JFK to another. LOL.
Second, at the time, officers released from active duty were not being held to their active reserve (in drilling status) statutory commitment. They could go directly to the inactive reserve. I chose to affiliate with the active reserves, but many didn't. I don't have any heartburn with those who didn't.
I thought I would drill until I didn't need the money any more. Twenty-three years later, I retired.
The U.S. Navy--one goddam good deal after another.
> ... Selective Service stopped allowing deferments for
> graduate school ... Bush would have known that no
> deferments for graduate school were available.
Including for divinity school?
Anyhow, noted for next edition. Thanks.
BTTT!!!!!!!
Divinity school deferments continued to be available (a different classification than college deferments) but neither Bush nor Clinton was interested in divinity school. Gore attended after he had been in the army.
> What's the source for this?
http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061603.shtml
"Kerry initially thought about enlisting as a pilot.
But his father, Richard Kerry - a test pilot who
served in the Army Air Corps - warned him that if he
flew in combat, he might lose his love of flying. So
Kerry, who sought in so many ways to emulate John
Fitzgerald Kennedy, took to the water, just as his
idol served on a World War II patrol boat, the 109."
Actually in 1965 congress exempted from income tax, all money earned in the combat theater. All it took to qualify for a month was a flyover, lots of office bound officers managed to get there one way or the other.
In Navy terms a tour or cruise was six months out of home port, sometimes those got extended. I served on a tanker so we made stops at Olongopo, Honk Kong, Yokosuka, and various other ports, that I can't remember. Fog of whiskey and all......The most danger I ever faced was the rooftops in Hong Kong, or a Jitney ride down a side street in Olongopo.
But I was there for three tours, so I want my hero badge too.<(•¿•)>
I have a question & since your post just answered part of it I'll pose the rest to you. ;) Wasn't GW actually a "guardsman" rather than a reservist?
Thank you for the *ping* and for the post. Sharing this with others.
> Sharing this with others.
Keep in mind it's Revision 0.9,
and needs a touch of work.
I'll update and repost it in a day or so.
I know for me your efforts are apprciated. When you update, ping me so I can forward it along.
> So it is not strange to me that Kerry entered as
> a USNR and left under the same conditions.
His Enlistment Contract says:
4. Branch & class of service:
USNR-R
7. Term of enlistment:
06 YEARS
15. Enlisted/reenlisted in U.S. Navy:
[x] INACTIVE DUTY
Can you tell me what the "-R" means, and whether
this is different than it would be for someone
who just walked into the recruiter and said
"I want to be a sailor".
Thanks for the ping!
I'm on Kerry like a dim on a welfare check.
LOL....Yep, you are, Tonk. And big thank you ((HUGZ)) for your efforts. I appreciate the pings and am doing what I can to help spread the word, as are others here. Vietnam vets aren't fighting this battle alone.
I am no fan of Kerry and hope that his "service" both military and civilian ultimately sinks his chances of becomming president. However, from all that I have been able to find - he can >>technically<< claim two tours of duty (even if neither of the "tours" was for the full 13 months).
Despite Clinton's advice to drop the Vietnam
topic, Kerry and his subordinates continue to
hammer away at GW's ANG service. They need
to drop this, because a comparison of Bush and
Kerry on this topic is not flattering to Kerry.
This is what one voter has learned from digging
around a bit on this issue. Please check this over
and contribute corrections and suggestions.
| Summary Edition: 2004-09-13 17:10 | |
| Bush | Kerry |
| Not available in WW-II, college deferments began during the Korea War, along with deferments for other situations. The Selective Service even admitted during the Vietnam War that this was intentional, in an infamous document titled "Channeling". | |
|
At onset of senior year, Bush apparently began considering his alternatives in the face of a likely draft upon graduation. Being a couple of years behind Kerry, post-grad deferments had been eliminated for most studies. |
In the middle of his senior year, Kerry applied for post-grad deferment to study in Paris. It was denied. This didn't leave Kerry much time before a draft notice could be expected to arrive. |
| Reserve enlistments were often seen as a way to avoid being cannon fodder in Vietnam, and the "safer" billets were consequently often hard to get. We'll get back to which was "safer". | |
| Bush has been accused of needing "pull" to get the ANG slot. There is no evidence (not even forgeries) to support this, but the legacy press isn't letting go of it. | The same legacy press anxious to find a Bush story on this has made zero effort to discover if Kerry needed "help" to get into the USNR. |
| Bush enlisted in the Texas Air National Guard, 147th Fighter Interceptor Group, in May of his senior year. |
Kerry enlisted in the U.S. Navy Reserve, "Inactive Duty" in Feb of his senior year. Note - not the USN. The USNR. Both Bush and Kerry were reservists. This point is made only because the Kerry camp is denigrating Bush's ANG service. |
| What did the two candidates sign up for, exactly? | |
|
The ANG 147th flew the F-102A, and only the F-102A. Bush could expect that if he made the grade, flying one is what he'd be doing. |
Kerry: "I didn't really want to get involved in the war,". Kerry's enlistment contract doesn't indicate his likely assignment upon call-up. Did he expect a deep-water billet far from the shooting? |
| Signing up for pilot training in any service placed the enlistee at risk of going in harm's way, and at risk of assignments unknown if they failed to make the grade as a pilot. | Kerry, by the way, was already a pilot in college, and it has been reported that he specifically avoided becoming a military pilot so as to not tarnish his love of flying. |
|
The F-102A was being used in combat in Vietnam when Bush enlisted. My guess is that he had no reason to assume he'd spend his entire ANG career stateside. In addition to the risks during bomber escort, F-102A's were even used for an experimental ground-attack mission, firing their heat-seeking missiles at VC campfires. There were combat losses of F-102As. Apart from that, just flying F-102A was dangerous. The plane had a horrible safety record, with losses higher than for the later AV-8 Harrier. Possibly more F-102A pilots were lost due to accidents than were lost in combat in other contemporary a/c types. Several pilots in Bush' ANG unit were killed by this airplane. |
Kerry found himself serving in the deep-water Navy, on the USS Gridley. Although this ship once made a port call in Vietnam, it was not a Vietnam "tour", and Kerry apparently never even went ashore during what he calls one of his two "tours" of Vietnam. Kerry evidently learned of Swift Boats during his Gridley service. PCFs were the closest thing the Navy had that was comparable to the PT Boats of WW-II and the real JFK. Did Kerry see this as part of his Destiny to be JFK-II? Anyway, here's Kerry on PCF's: "When I signed up for the swift boats, they had very little to do with the war. They were engaged in coastal patrolling and that's what I thought I was going to be doing." When Kerry applied for transfer, PCFs were doing "Market Time" coastal interdiction operations. By the time he completed his training, Zumwalt had expanded their scope to "SEALORD" ops, dangerous draw-fire up-river missions. Did Kerry have second thoughts about PCFs? There is an unconfirmed report that Kerry was 17 days late in reporting as ordered to Vietnam. His complaining about the risky SEALORD missions is recorded by the SBVFT. |
| Past this point, numerous other sources are covering the respective stories. | |
|
Bush signed up for hazardous service that turned out to be a bit less hazardous than he had reason to expect. The details of Bush's ANG service, after earning his wings, and his early release, are beyond the scope of this article. |
Kerry signed up for service that turned out to be more hazardous than he appears to have intended. How Kerry managed to have such a short "tour" of Vietnam, and his actions and documentation there, his later behavior while still a USN Reserve officer, and how he dodged 2 years of Reserve drills are beyond the scope of this article. |
| Q: Cheney? | A: Edwards Heck; Clinton. And just why are we still talking about this stuff, instead of about comparative Commanders in Chief during the present War on Terror? |
Yes, a "tour" is at least a full year.
Unless Kerry was a tourist, he arguably did not serve two "tours" of Vietnam.
He may have served one non-VN tour on the Gridley,
but we can only count two tours if we either
accept the validity of his 3 Purple Hearts, or we
include the period of his service to North Vietnam.
Excellent update, thank you for the ping!
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