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Posted on 08/31/2004 9:25:08 PM PDT by mcg1969
IMHO, Republicans tend to use the wrong arguments regarding sexual morality. It seems to me they miss some excellent secular arguments. While religious arguments may be better for believers, they may be easily and completely dismissed by non-believers. I'd be curious, though, how a liberal could counter the following:
There used to be a notion that men and women would get married and raise families. While there were some people that didn't, it was pretty much expected that most people would get married and start a family; the purpose of getting married was to join with someone to beget and raise children. While society certainly wasn't perfect then, for the most part things worked pretty well.
I don't think one has to be a religious zealot to observe that the societal effects of the new sexual morality have been, to put it mildly, harmful. The promised 'liberation' has in reality been anything but, as it prevents people from doing the one thing that really matters: raising the next generation.
It is very clear that the best environment for raising children is a nuclear family headed by a married mother and father. While some children raised in other environments come out okay, and while there are sometimes legitimate reasons why children end up in less-than-ideal situations, those hardly justify deliberately placing children in a sub-optimal environment.
Not every individual is going to get married and have kids. That's always been the case, and there are sometimes legitimate reasons for people not to have children. I think it important, though, to recognize that the norm is, and must be, for people to marry and have children. Any society in which that is not the norm is doomed to extinction.
Many Republicans, I think, tend to get too caught up in the "moralistic" aspects of sexual behavior to see the big picture. Notice my above statements go far beyond anything the Republicans have said in terms of what it commands, and yet does not attack people as being evil or immoral and cannot be criticized for being theocratic. It is an absolutely 100% secular argument against today's standards of sexual morality, and yet I've never heard any Republicans articulate it.
Al Gore and Wife Tipper headlined fundraiser at Phelps' Topeka Home; Phelps Family Reportedly Invited to Clinton-Gore Inaugurations in 93 and 97
ED: this is unsubstantiated. As taken from http://www.logcabinwa.com/archive/200010251159.shtml:
(WASHINGTON) Reports linking Vice President Al Gore with notorious anti-gay activist Fred Phelps, Jr., and the Westboro Baptist Church in Topeka, Kansas were confirmed with the release of photographs showing Gore at a fundraiser at the home of Fred Phelps, Jr., who told the Conservative News Service on October 16 that he served as a Gore delegate on the floor of the Democratic National Convention in Atlanta in 1988.
Gore, who was quoted by the Nashville Tennessean in 1984 saying homosexuality is not "an acceptable alternative that society should affirm" and said in his 1984 U.S. Senate race that he would not accept money from gay rights organizations and that he opposed a "gay bill of rights," reportedly sought the support of the Phelps family in his 1988 presidential campaign, and invited the Phelps' to the Clinton-Gore inaugurations of January 1993 and January 1997.
The Westboro Baptist Church runs a website called "www.godhatesfags.com" which includes virulent anti-gay statements and attacks on Jews and Catholics. The site calls the religious right "lukewarm cowards" and has an animated photograph of gay murder victim Matthew Shepard surrounded by flames, with a statement entitled "Matthew Shepard's Message from Hell." The Phelps family has gained international notoriety for picketing the funerals of gay people with signs that say "God Hates Fags."
Fred Phelps, Sr., pastor of the church, told CNS that the 1989 fundraiser held at his son's home was for Al Gore, and published several photographs on the church website to substantiate it, including one showing Gore and his wife Tipper arm-in-arm with Fred and Betty Phelps. Phelps, Sr. also told CNS that he provided office space and staff accommodations for Gore campaign staffers in the 1988 campaign.
Phelps, Sr. told CNS that Gore "looked us in the eye and gave us assurance, that, based on his Bible beliefs, he was against the homosexual agenda and the killing of babies."
"No one argues that Gore had an anti-gay record in the past. However, if it is true that he was allied with Fred Phelps as recently as 1997, then Al Gore's got a lot of explaining to do," said Rich Tafel, executive director of Log Cabin Republicans. "At this time the sources are themselves questionable, so the Vice President can end this mystery by denying any relationship with Phelps now. Most troubling is the charge that Al Gore invited Fred Phelps to his inaugurations as Vice President in 1993 and 1997. That was less than three years ago. We need some answers."
Fred Phelps, Jr. also ran for Governor of Kansas in the Democratic primary in 1990, winning over 11,000 votes and placing third.
Log Cabin Republicans is the nation's largest gay and lesbian Republican organization, with state and local chapters nationwide, a full-time national office and a federal political action committee.
http://www.shame.org/detail.html?335
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Pastor Fred Phelps seen here with Senator Al Gore and Wife Tipper.
Forget about it. Ron Jr. is a self-righteous windbag.
IMHO, Ron Silver seems to be the brightest bulb on the panel. He seems well read in terms of historical events, and also seems to have a pulse on what Americans think.
Oh, he's also easier on the eyes than the "other" Ron.
Sadly, the other panelists talked over him, or interrupted him most of the time when he tried to contribute to the discussion.
As for gay marriage, I don't support it. However, upon lots of reflection, I don't have a problem with the secular world participating in it. Even the President supports civil unions and the "benefits" that would provide. Where I draw the line is the church sanctifying gay marriage vows. It's one thing for the state to look the other way. It's quite something else for the church to perform a ceremony, or encourage gay unions. But I don't think the church should be involved in stopping what the state is doing in this regard.
Michael Savage called RR a human 'stem cell'........lmao!
Actually, supercat, I'm in agreement with your secular analysis of gay marriage and the need for Republicans to follow that line of argument. My self-identification as a Christian was simply to point out that I'm a member of the very group that Ron Reagan would like to pretend are a bunch of homophobes.
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