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Abolish the Electoral College
NY Times ^ | August 29, 2004

Posted on 08/28/2004 11:34:36 PM PDT by Former Military Chick

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To: risk

"My thoughts? Open this area of the Constitution up for actual change, and it'll be a disaster. I don't want to have any sort of bipartisan discussion about the EC issue until the Democrats lose this next election by a wide margin and realize they have to clean house. In fact, I will resist discussion of changes to the EC even if Democrats have won with it. The EC is one of our Founding Fathers' most brilliant ideas, and I am wary of anyone who wants to tinker with it."

-- what about the merits of the idea?


161 posted on 08/29/2004 3:31:29 AM PDT by Remember_Salamis (Freedom is Not Free)
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To: risk
I would have to figure out what to do with states like California. Can you imagine our legislature appointing our senators? I can't.

I can and I'd live with it. I'd hope that it inspires more grass-roots attention to local politics.

If California were to be split up, it would have to be into several viable states -- it can't just be split up. So, how do we split California into smaller states that can still survive on their own?

How about:

1. South California: Coastal San Diego, Los Angeles, north up to, but not including Monterey. They get the naval base and the entertainment business. Capital: Los Angeles. Political leaning: mixed.

2. North California: Coastal Monterey, San Francisco Bay Area, Napa, north to Redding and the Oregon Border. They get liberal fantasyland. Capital: Berkeley. Political leaning: Hard Left Democrat.

3. Sierra: Eastern mountainous region that runs up the entire eastern border of California. They get water, tourism, Yosemite, Tahoe, winter skiing. Capital: Sacramento. Political leaning: Conservative Republican.

-PJ

162 posted on 08/29/2004 3:34:45 AM PDT by Political Junkie Too (It's still not safe to vote Democrat.)
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To: Remember_Salamis
I don't want to take you to task over it, but it forms a hybrid out of a system that is already complicated by the separation of EC and popular votes. Try explaining the EC concept and yours to kids in civics classes! As it stands we can tell them that their EC votes in the president no matter what. If you thought you could teach middle schoolers what your system meant to the election process, I would consider it.
163 posted on 08/29/2004 3:36:24 AM PDT by risk
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To: Political Junkie Too
Gerrymandering always makes me nervous. But your comment: "I'd hope that it inspires more grass-roots attention to local politics," is intriguing and I think it would work. Instead of just saying, "will this candidate help you in your district," we'd be forcing citizens to say, "is he up to the task of appointing a senator?"

These are exciting ideas, fellow FReeper!

164 posted on 08/29/2004 3:38:41 AM PDT by risk
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To: risk
That's why they call it a "ship of state." You turn the rudder now, but it takes miles before the turn is noticable. Vote for state assemblymen and state senators now, and eventually you will get a federal senator to your liking.

-PJ

165 posted on 08/29/2004 3:41:57 AM PDT by Political Junkie Too (It's still not safe to vote Democrat.)
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To: dila813
California is insane, that monster needs to be split into three states.

Totally agree. California, taken alone, would be the fifth largest economy in the world. I do not think the founders of this country intended for a single state to have this much power over the rest of the nation. Splitting it into three states makes perfect sense. Of course, Texas and New York would need to be split in two to keep it consistent. Florida is getting close to needing to be split in two.

The Electoral College is great. Otherwise, candidates would be forced to campaign only in big cities, totally ignoring rural areas and sparsely populated states.

166 posted on 08/29/2004 3:55:02 AM PDT by SamAdams76 (Bush 53%)
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To: risk
"I don't want to take you to task over it, but it forms a hybrid out of a system that is already complicated by the separation of EC and popular votes. Try explaining the EC concept and yours to kids in civics classes! As it stands we can tell them that their EC votes in the president no matter what. If you thought you could teach middle schoolers what your system meant to the election process, I would consider it."

-- First off, you're using the same argument to defend the EC that the NYT is using to attack it. Anyways, I'll explain it as if I were talking to a middle schooler:

1. In America, we do not directly elect our president, and we never have.

2. Instead, we "elect the electors".

3. As a voter, your vote for president really counts three times, once for your Congressional district and twice for your state.

4. These "electors" then have to vote for the candidate their constituency chose

5. These totals are added up, the person with the most votes wins

6. If there's a tie for some reason, it gets a little bit complicated.

6a. It will be decided by having each state vote for who they want.

6b. The state will decide who they vote for by having all of their congressmen get together and deciding.

6c. If they cannot decide, the state gets no vote.

6d. If there is again a tie between the number of states, the Senate then gets to vote for president.

6e. If the Senate again ties, the Vice president will break the tie, which happens in every senate vote.

6f. The Constitution is not clear on whether the old Vice President or the new Vice President will break the tie, but it is most likely the old president.

7. Questions?
167 posted on 08/29/2004 4:10:07 AM PDT by Remember_Salamis (Freedom is Not Free)
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To: SamAdams76

Yes, they would care less about the people who hold onto traditional values. But that's what the perfumed princes and the Boston brahmin want.


168 posted on 08/29/2004 4:10:48 AM PDT by risk
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To: SamAdams76

So who's going to violate a state's sovereignty and split the state in two? Only the state itself could decide that. But even that wouldn't work: it would encourage EVERY state to infinitely divide and increase their Senate representation.


169 posted on 08/29/2004 4:12:33 AM PDT by Remember_Salamis (Freedom is Not Free)
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To: Former Military Chick

<< The Electoral College makes Republicans in New York, and Democrats in Utah, superfluous. >>

Bull$hit!

The Electoral College ensures that the voters of every one of the fifty sovereign states that own operate and comprise these united STATES, gets his say in who will occupy the chief executive's office -- be, as it were, chairman of the federal board.

<< .... in 2000, when George Bush became president even though he lost the popular vote to Al Gore by more than 500,000 votes .... >>

More bull$hit!

The total number of votes cast for Gore by criminal aliens and other ineligible miscreants by far exceeded 500,000 -- and President Bush won where it counts -- and by 38 states to 12 and, geographically, in 81% of the country, populated by 143 million Americans, to Gore's 19% and 129 million.

The Electoral College is one of the Founding Fathers' very best ideas!


170 posted on 08/29/2004 4:15:56 AM PDT by Brian Allen (President George W Bush by 10 percentage points and 44 EC States -- the other bozo 6 States and DC)
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To: Remember_Salamis
Compared to:
  1. States choose their electors by choosing which party's two nominees (which is equal to the number of senators) will represent them.
  2. This priviledge is based on the candidate who recieves the most votes; the party whose candidate is selected nominates the electorate.
  3. The electoral college chooses the president, and their decision is finalized on January 6 after the November election.

171 posted on 08/29/2004 4:20:49 AM PDT by risk
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To: TigersEye
This article pertains to our recent discussions...

See post #81: Alexander Hamilton's treatise on the Electoral College...

BTW, W has been reading about Hamilton lately...

172 posted on 08/29/2004 4:35:38 AM PDT by .30Carbine
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To: Paleo Conservative

However one may think about the EC - it is definitely more important to get the voting procedure clean! It´s unbearable for the United States that still dead people votes count or that the list of people who are uneligible to vote (like criminals) is hidden from the public in many states. We don´t have these problems in Europe and therefore consider your voting procedure as inferior. You have too many posssibilities to manipulate elections (and I blame the blue and red side for that). I know you will dismiss it, but being registered from birth till death by the city you live in, and bearing a national ID with your address on it has advantages. We receive a notification a few weeks before our election by mail, then we can send it back and ask for a mail vote or we go to the ballots, show our ID or passport, our names on the voter list is marked and we get our vote. When the ballots close, the number of marked names is counted and must be identical with the number of votes. Then the helping hands in the office count the votes - and we take care that at least one of the two big parties is present. With that easy procedure, we never had any claims that there could be a fraud. Oh, and the right to vote can be taken away by a courts decision, but it must be said in the sentence, and for max. 5 years. This (our) system is different to the US -and ... that´s a point why many many people put the finger on you.


173 posted on 08/29/2004 4:40:55 AM PDT by Michael81Dus
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To: Former Military Chick

The Times' editorital does not answer the one critical question: why should American citizerns entrust the Presidency to the voters of the most populous states?
That would be the consequence of electing the President
by popular vote.


174 posted on 08/29/2004 4:49:48 AM PDT by quadrant
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To: Former Military Chick

I would vote for keeping the Electoral Collage as it is - and as the founding fathers wished it to be. It is the last vestige of the concept of the united States of America as opposed to the United states of America. It was bad enough when our Senators were changed from representing the States to become nothing more than another House of Representatives.
The election of the President of the united States is too important to leave entirely up to the mob.


175 posted on 08/29/2004 4:58:02 AM PDT by R. Scott (Humanity i love you because when you're hard up you pawn your Intelligence to buy a drink.)
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To: dila813
California is insane, that monster needs to be split into three states.

I think many Californians would agree.
176 posted on 08/29/2004 5:00:14 AM PDT by R. Scott (Humanity i love you because when you're hard up you pawn your Intelligence to buy a drink.)
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To: Travis McGee
Without the EC, candidates would just focus on NY, CA, TX, FL and a handful of coastal mega states.

A very good point.
177 posted on 08/29/2004 5:01:55 AM PDT by R. Scott (Humanity i love you because when you're hard up you pawn your Intelligence to buy a drink.)
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To: Former Military Chick

At least it would have spared us clinton, who won with 42 percent of the popular vote.


178 posted on 08/29/2004 5:07:35 AM PDT by js1138 (Speedy architect of perfect labyrinths.)
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To: .30Carbine; Remember_Salamis
Nor would it be found easy suddenly to embark them, dispersed as they would be over thirteen States, in any combinations founded upon motives, which though they could not properly be denominated corrupt, might yet be of a nature to mislead them from their duty.

Hello .30Carbine! We agree on something: the EC is a superb institution, and Hamilton does indeed explain it well, quoting Alexander Pope: "For forms of government let fools contest -- That which is best administered is best."

Hamilton was also a proponent of the right for individual citizens to keep and bear military-grade weapons.

He was also a defender of the state's neutrality with respect to religious beliefs writing in Federalist 51, " In a free government the security for civil rights must be the same as that for religious rights. It consists in the one case in the multiplicity of interests, and in the other in the multiplicity of sects."

179 posted on 08/29/2004 5:11:22 AM PDT by risk
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To: Former Military Chick
It's hard to tell New York City children that every vote is equally important

Then explain to the children that the electoral college makes every vote equally importatnt.

180 posted on 08/29/2004 5:16:17 AM PDT by Rightly Biased (I'll vote Republican till the day I die then I'll vote democrat.)
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