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To: Junior; Alamo-Girl; Michael_Michaelangelo
However, it does not appear that he's published anything supporting ID, which I know is the impression you were trying to convey.

Junior, what about the present article? It's got "Intelligent Design" written all over it! The tip-offs are all references to purposeful functionality, and the information (his way of writing the word on p. 216) that makes this possible. "Form" since the classical Greeks has generally implied "design," as in Aristotle's formal cause (Laws II).

47 posted on 08/26/2004 11:10:49 AM PDT by betty boop
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To: Junior; Alamo-Girl; Michael_Michaelangelo; marron
Arrgggh Junior, but I have mispoken: The reference for Aristotelian formal cause is not to be found in Laws II, for that text cannot be found. :^) I meant to say Physics, Book II. Coincidentally, I happen to have that book with me today, so can give the cite (Physics III, 3):

(2) the form or pattern of a thing, that is, the reason (and the kind of reason) which explains what it was to be that thing....

My astrophysicist friend has given a superb exposition of the four Aristotelian causes in a recent draft manuscript. I'll quote him here, just in case any Lurker might be interested in the bases of Aristotelian logic:

“the material cause is the basic stuff out of which the thing is made. The material cause of a house, for example, would include the wood, metal, glass, and other building materials used in its construction. All of these things belong in an explanation of the house because it could not exist unless they were present in its composition.

"The formal cause {Gk. eidos} is the pattern or essence in conformity with which these materials are assembled. Thus, the formal cause of our exemplary house would be the sort of thing that is represented on a blueprint of its design. This, too, is part of the explanation of the house, since its materials would be only a pile of rubble (or a different house) if they were not put together in this way.

"The efficient cause is the agent or force immediately responsible for bringing this matter and that form together in the production of the thing. Thus, the efficient cause of the house would include the carpenters, masons, plumbers, and other workers who used these materials to build the house in accordance with the blueprint for its construction. Clearly the house would not be what it is without their contribution.

"Lastly, the final cause {Gk. telos} is the end or purpose for which a thing exists, so the final cause of our house would be to provide shelter for human beings. This is part of the explanation of the house's existence because it would never have been built unless someone needed it as a place to live.” -- Attila Grandpierre, ms of the forthcoming Book of the Living Universe, 2004

65 posted on 08/26/2004 11:40:24 AM PDT by betty boop
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To: betty boop

The whole article is rather poor in concept. Meyer seems to be suffering from the "Fallacy of Retrospective Astonishment." It's analogous to looking at a bridge hand and claiming that the cards were arranged because the probability of getting that hand was 1 in 3,954,242,643,910,000,000,000 roughly.

The author's definition of "form" implies that donuts, coffee cups, headless humans, and nematodes are all of the same form. (A donut really does look like a very short worm.) He doesn't give any specifics other than some confused comments on topology.

Meyer also uses several versions of "complexity" without defining any of them. This allows him to be ambiguous, clandestinely switching between meanings. He talks about an increase in "complex specified information" without defining the term; however he does claim this undefined "something" increases over time. He gives no measure to show that his claim is true. Later he claims that no "materialist" (another undefined term) mechanism can account for his claim of an unmeasured increase in his undefined "something."

He dismisses self-organized complexity without even getting the mechanism correct. (He claims "highly improbable outcomes" in contrast to the actual work done on self-organization.)

Towards the end, he claims that things must have been "designed" without showing what he means by "design" nor by showing a mechanism for such design. A truly pathetic article.


70 posted on 08/26/2004 11:53:02 AM PDT by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch is der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: betty boop; Junior; tortoise; PatrickHenry; Michael_Michaelangelo; Doctor Stochastic
Thank you so much for the ping! Speaking of form, I'm so excited that he has brought geometric physics into the arena of information theory and molecular biology. Yeehaw!

From the article (emphasis mine!):

Form can be defined as the four-dimensional topological relations of anatomical parts. This means that one can understand form as a unified arrangement of body parts or material companonents in a distinct shape or pattern (toplogy) - one that exists in three spatial dimensions and which arises in time during ontogeny.

This is an extraordinary and mostly overlooked import of information theory (successful communication, paraphrased from Shannon) relative to evolution!

IOW, let us consider the reduction of uncertainty (information) necessary for geometric form in addition to the rise of information in causation for biological life (normally viewed in two dimensions, i.e. DNA).

114 posted on 08/26/2004 7:31:21 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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