[RebelBanker]

If you do not believe Orson Scott Card (as well as President Bush) that a most basic desire common to all human beings is to have children who grow up and have their own children, what do you propose we do about it?

I tend to agree with Mr. Card and Pres. Bush because passing along genetic material is an instinct or drive common to all living things. You can train people or animals to overcome their instincts, but the basic instinct is still there.

[Taliesan]

If you do not believe Orson Scott Card (as well as President Bush) that a most basic desire common to all human beings is to have children who grow up and have their own children, what do you propose we do about it?

I offer you the evidence of history, and Card's OWN ARGUMENT, that fantasy ideology can and does overcome "basic desires" for entire swaths of the population and entire generations.

It is empirically unassailable that MANY religious people actually value the next life more than this one, and make life-changing and life-ending decisions based on that belief. I'm not asking you to agree with said belief; I'm asking you to apply Occam's Razor to an observed phenomenon.

Simplest explanation: they believe it. For them, they no longer desire grandchildren; they desire the best end for their children, which, in their view, is martyrdom. Their parental love is intact; their story re-directs that love to an erroneous end.

[Tolik]

I also think that the basic instinct is there for the most part.

It took decades for the World to look another way to allow conditioning of Palestinians (for example) to proceed to the point where they celebrate death. If the West held any help until they stop suicide bombing and did not invent excuses why it may be ok in their case, we would not have a successful tactic of suicide bombing on our hands.

There is a billion and a half of Muslims in the world. Even if only a small percentage is indeed so fanatical as to celebrate the death of their own kids, its still a large number of people. But the most of them... I don't think so.

The real sickness is why they stay quiet. The longer the problem is not confronted by the West and the Muslim world, more people will be successfully brainwashed.

[Little Ray]

We have to undermine and destroy their culture and replace it something similar to our own. We did this for Japan, if I am not completely misinterpreting the occupation.