Belloc’s Prophecy - his view of Islam as a Christian Heresy

"Sobran's", Vienna,VA ^ | October 25, 2001 | Joseph Sobran

[TheCrusader]

"Finally, Belloc sounds a bit like an apologist for ISLAM and not an accurate historian."

You've got to be joking. Belloc was considered to be perhaps the greatest historian of the 20th century. He was a very devout Catholic who wrote much about Islam in his book "The Crusades", and his writings were anything but defenses of Islam. In fact, in a century that began to see relentless attacks on the Christian faith through revised history, (such as casting the Crusaders as 'evil invaders'), Belloc heroicly defended the Crusades and the Christian Faith, and accurately cast Islam, ('the Turk', as he called them), as ferocious, often merciless conquerors and warriors. The fact that he assigned intelligence to them shows how wise Belloc was; he was trying to tell his readers not to underestimate them.

His alleged "defense" of Islam was actually his brilliant insight into their core beliefs and his VAST knowledge of history. Belloc knew very well that no Medieval Christian took Islam lightly, and he knew that because of Islamic fanaticism they would one day rise again. He was right. Belloc was also correct in his observation that Islam was actually a bastardization of Christianity and Judaism. (The early Christians called the Mohmamedans 'heretics', because they adopted many Christian beliefs but rejected many others.) Belloc also correctly observed that the Christian faith was on the decline in the West. Just look to our own government today, which has made all public places off-limits to Christ the King. And look at Western society in general, which has morally deteriorated at a mind boggling rate over the last 100 years.

[RileyD, nwJ]

JV,

After a few hours of sleep and more than a few cups of coffe, I sit here corrected. You are of course correct, Tamerlane claimed to be a descendent of Ghengis Khan and was not the son or grandson. And their are sources that argue this claim was manufactured.

I will try not to post at 3 a.m. in the future when the brain translates descendent poorly while ignoring centures of separation ...

Tamerlane never maintained an empire as he ruled by sheer terror often building pyramids of skulls from citys/areas he conquered. He died in poor health at the age of 69 as he was attempting to lead an invasion of China with the goal of conquering.

RileyD, nwJ

[TheCrusader]

"Where they conquered, daily life usually went on much as before and culture thrived. In many respects the Muslim world was far more civilized than Christian Europe for centuries."

"written by a catholic scholar? what a moron."

Actually Belloc was a genius, and considered the world over as the greatest historian of his times. The fact is that today very few people understand history beyond what they see at the movies or watch on the boob tube.

What Belloc knew that you obviously do not know, is that Western Europe suffered from a massive loss of arts and sciences during the middle ages due to the Barbarians' conquering of the Western Roman Empire. They burned the books, destroyed the arts and ignored the sciences which once thrived in Western Europe. But the EAST, (Chrisitan Byzantium and Islam), continued to thrive as before. THIS is why Belloc wrote "In many respects the Muslim world was far more civilized than Christian Europe for centuries."

We don't need people attacking the intelligence, knowledge and faith of Hillaire Belloc, we need many more like him today.

[Dumb_Ox]

Belloc's chapter on Islam from The Great Heresies

[Robert_Paulson2]

"Where they conquered, daily life usually went on much as before and culture thrived. In many respects the Muslim world was far more civilized than Christian Europe for centuries."

---

He's wrong.
You are wrong.
The barbarians may have destroyed a lot in Europe, but that did NOT make christendom lest civilized than islam. Of course, ISLAM was a group of just such barbarians. And they destroyed, sacked or stole from every culture they overwhelmed.

The term 'barbarian' has been often used to refer to barbarian islamists. So any assertion that these islamic barbarians who invaded and destroyed wherever they went... were somehow more civilized than the christian nations they invaded, sacked, raped, pillaged and generally destroyed is rididculous.

I find it interesting that certain alleged "christian" theologians are such dedicated apologists for the gutter religion of murder and mayhem.

Belloc.
Idiot.
My conclusion. You enjoy him if you want.

[swilhelm73]

The first muslim leader of the Mongols was Baraka Khan of the Golden Horde in 1256. Eventually all of the western Mongols would become Muslims.

[Robert_Paulson2]

3 degrees.

however even an uneducated slob should be able to understand that anybody who asserts that islam was more civilized than christendom...

is an idiot.

[rmlew]

The Huns (Mongols) conquered and reconqured Baghdad and Persia, but it was an Egyptian army commanded by Marmeluke Sultan Kutuz who won the first victory against the Mongols.
The Huns were not Mongols. The Huns were a Turkic and Iranian Steppe culture. Even the Hephtalite, the white Huns who ruled int he east and had Juan-Juan/Mongol subjects were not Mongols.

The Ottoman Empire did not really exist in the 13th century. The Mongols did destroy the Seljuk Empire, which allowed the Uthman/Osmani clan to later dominate the Oghur Turks of Anatolia and then form the Ottomans.

[Campion]

"Where they conquered, daily life usually went on much as before and culture thrived. In many respects the Muslim world was far more civilized than Christian Europe for centuries."

That's Sobran writing; he's not quoting Belloc, or even summarizing him. Blame the right guy, please.

[TheCrusader]

"The Huns were not Mongols. The Huns were a Turkic and Iranian Steppe culture"

This is an interesting claim because the Mongols and the Huns were both a Turkic people. For example, the Indian Moghal Empire was established by Turks. But many scholars still hold that the Moghals were of Mongol origin. The truth is that the language of the Moghals was Turkic, and that the founders of this empire were proud of being Turk.

Also, the official language of the Mongol Empire was Uigrian, which is a Turkic language. Eighteen Turkish tribes played an important role in the founding of the Mongol Empire. So how you can categorically state that the Huns were not Mongols, based on the Huns being a Turcik people, is puzzling to me.

[rmlew]

The Turks and Mongols are steppe peoples, who speak Altaic languages. The Mongol Empire was dominated by a Mongol elite, but from the beginning its troops were mostly Tatars, Turks conquered by the Mongols.
The Mongols conquered the Uyghur Khaganate. This is why the Moghuls had both elements.

The Huns existed 1000 years before Temujin united the Mongols. The Chinese, who lived with both played the Juan-Juan (Mongols) against the Huing-nu(Huns).

[dennisw]

btttttttt

[Old Professer]

If they win, it will be because we've become too soft.

[Old Professer]

I just found a tagline-again!:

[jude24]

Read Belloc for yourself before you come to that conclusion. I just did, and I was astounded. The guy was amazingly prescient. Look at his analysis of WHY "daily life usually went on much as before and culture thrived." (Basically, it wasn't because of any Islamic tolerance, but because of the precarious positions of the caliphates.)

Disagree with Belloc if you like. But he most certainly is not an idiot.

[ventana]

First, read Belloc, then comment. The Muslim world of the early middle ages was more civilized than Christendom, as they had overtakend Persian culture, but maintained much of its trappings. V's wife.

[Robert_Paulson2]

screw belloc.
you belloc worshippers need to buy a clue.
the barbarian hordes were NEVER more civilized than Christianity in general.

take that balarkey to some other beeber and stune them with baalocs beeber baloney.

I don't need to read after a dead beeber religionist who thinks islam is in any way or any time superior to Christ, the Church or the free nations that have sprung forth from that root of God's truth.

stuff bellock.
fry the slammies and get it over with.
we don't need a history lesson.
I saw the slaughtered kids and talked to my orthodox christian russian friends from that region.

bellock is an IDIOT compared to them.


So you can take that smugly belloc "muzzies WERE better" carp to some other dumbarsed beeber... not me. Russia won't buy it either.

[yianni]

Remarkable statement from Belloc in 1936-

"There lay upon the freemen, already tortured with debt, a heavy burden of imperial taxation; and there was the irritant of existing central government interfering with men's lives; there was the tyranny of the lawyers and their charges."

bttt

[grey_whiskers]

You were quoting someone who said:
"Finally, Belloc sounds a bit like an apologist for ISLAM and not an accurate historian."

[Sarcasm torpedo ARMED. FIRE!]
Gore Vidal and Kerry biographer Brinkley are
self-evidently better </g>

Try actually reading Belloc's writings if you can find
them. In addition to 'Heresies', Freeper / Libertarian types ought to have org*sms over his book 'The Servile State' which was written *before* the Bolshevik revolution.
And he was an *incredible* essayist.

Finally, don't forget G.K. Chesterton (the other half of
the 'Chesterbelloc'): his novel 'The Flying Inn' was
based on the premise of a resurgent Islam and a skulking,
accomodative (and secretly traitorous) government.

I quoted Belloc in my preface to my doctoral thesis--
half Monte Carlo, half quantum mechanics.

[TheCrusader]

"Finally, don't forget G.K. Chesterton (the other half of the 'Chesterbelloc'): his novel 'The Flying Inn' was based on the premise of a resurgent Islam and a skulking, accomodative (and secretly traitorous) government."

Thanks for this information, I'm going to read it. ~ Jim