The Death of Canadian Scouting

Intellectual Conservative ^ | 13 August 2004 | Hans Zeiger

[Zionist Conspirator]

And atheist youth groups "discriminate" against believers. What's your point?

Name one, if you would. And if they are totally private it is their right.

Oh, so "discrimination" is only wrong when perpetrated by religious people but is a "right" when atheists do it. Thank you so much for clearing that up.

[puroresu]

Go to the American Atheist website. They have a full time youth director.

It is their right. It's also the right of the Scouts to set their own standards as well.

A tax exemption is not a subsidy, by the way. The idea that it is comes from the socialist worldview that all money belongs to the state. Nor is allowing an organization to use public facilities an endorsement.

This mandatory tolerance crap is just another form of totalitarianism. No wonder so many all-encompassing despotisms are atheistic.

[elmer fudd]

You're absolutely right. And as such, they should get no tax funding or privileged use of public facilities.

I could go along with that on a federal level, but only if taxes and the government were reduced to levels allowed for by the constitution. If the government were just a minor player in our lives that ran the court system, minted our money and guarded our borders against invasion then tax funding and public facilities for the Boy Scouts would not be an issue. When the government is involved in virtually every aspect of our lives however, saying that an organization must exist completely outside of it is discriminatory in itself. If you're going to cut off funding for the Boy Scouts for religious reasons, then by the same logic you should cut off medicare and medicaid in Catholic hospitals, AA, military chaplains, student loans, the GI bill and probably half of all other government programs.

[NHResident]

gcruse - is using 'troll' statements to pose a false argument and stir up emotions.

The basic rational for any kind of public (or governmental) support or funding is and should be based on the contribution a group makes to society as a whole. BSA (as well as religious groups, in general) are considered to contribute to and benefit society - that is the justification for public monies and support. Restrictions in membership on the basis of religion, sex, behavior, achievment, etc. are entirely justifiable based on the aims of the organization - you can't force a synagogue to Bar Mitzvah a 13-year old Muslim (as much as gcruse may 'feel' for the poor boy) or force a minor seminary to take in an atheist to study for the priesthood. However, tax breaks and government preferences exist for both.

gcruse should take some time to mature in its understanding, argument structure and questions.

[gcruse]

Does your outrage extend to public schools that discriminate against Christians but not against moslems?

All religion should be out of public schools.  That's what Sunday School and Kill the Infidel Academies are for. 

[little jeremiah]

I didn't see the opening ceremony, don't have a TV. I consider that secular humanism, or whatever people want to call it, stems from the rebellion in the human heart against the natural authority of God's supremacy. It seeps out and creates various atheist, utopian, and relativist philosophies, each of which is founded upon a basic internal contradiction - that there is no supreme authority, yet the propounders of said atheist philosophies present themselves and their world view as "right".

If such relativists really believed in relativism they would never say a word about anything (other than, for instance, "pass the mustard, please"). And they certainly wouldn't debate with honest monotheists.

[FreedomPoster]

>>Works for me. Just don't look for any public funding or special taxpayer treatment.

So, that is only to be expected for purely secular organizations? In many cases today, these are de facto anti-religious in nature, preaching a doctrine this is its own "religion".

[gcruse]

Oh, so "discrimination" is only wrong when perpetrated by religious people but is a "right" when atheists do it. Thank you so much for clearing that up.

It's your right to do it. Not your right to get money from my pocket to pay for it, though.  If you can admit being in favor of discriminating against kids for religious reasons, you may be honest, but not honorable.

[Zionist Conspirator]

I didn't see the opening ceremony, don't have a TV. I consider that secular humanism, or whatever people want to call it, stems from the rebellion in the human heart against the natural authority of God's supremacy. It seeps out and creates various atheist, utopian, and relativist philosophies, each of which is founded upon a basic internal contradiction - that there is no supreme authority, yet the propounders of said atheist philosophies present themselves and their world view as "right".

Spot on, and I didn't mean the ancient Greeks invented humanism, but that their civilization celebrated it and passed it on as a philosophy to the modern world.

If such relativists really believed in relativism they would never say a word about anything (other than, for instance, "pass the mustard, please"). And they certainly wouldn't debate with honest monotheists.

That is the most clever and succinct expression of what I've been trying to say that I have ever read. Kudos!

[FreedomPoster]

Define "special public privileges". That's a pretty vague term. Do you mean to imply you don't believe they have the right to utilize any public facilities?

[elmer fudd]

Actually I don't think a group should need to contribute to society to use public facilities. So long as they are members of our society and their actions are not hurting anybody then they should be able to use the facilities that are available to the public. If the local rocket club or Dungeons and Dragons players or even the local Pentecostal prayer group want to use the meeting room in the library or the picnic area in the park and they make the proper reservations, then more power to them. They pay their taxes and they should be able to make use of the public facilities so long as they play by the rules.

[RightOnline]

Just a further reflection of what has happened to Canada as a whole.

A once-great country has gone to total s**t due to rampant liberalism. That's a fact. Been there too many times; seen it with my own eyes.

[little jeremiah]

Thank you kindly.

Of course, I consider any ability anyone has is simply a gift from God, so I can't take any credit. It's how we use our gifts that counts!

[gcruse]

. If you're going to cut off funding for the Boy Scouts for religious reasons, then by the same logic you should cut off medicare and medicaid in Catholic hospitals,

Are atheists refused treatment in Catholic hospitals? My father was treated in St Anthony's hospital in Amarillo and I don't remember them even asking if he believed in God.

[Zionist Conspirator]

It's your right to do it. Not your right to get money from my pocket to pay for it, though. If you can admit being in favor of discriminating against kids for religious reasons, you may be honest, but not honorable.

Calm down, take a few deep breaths, and remember that the world is essentially meaningless. Then you can stop hyperventilating over subjective moral hang-ups (about "honor," "taxation," "rights" or anything or any other such groundless societal or personal conventions) and concentrate on (as Little Jeremiah so aptly suggests) things like "pass the mustard please."

Good gravy, you act like your trying to save your "soul" or something. Or perhaps those of your opponents.

Would an ant get all worked up about these things?

[elmer fudd]

No, but government money spent on Catholic hospitals helps subsidize that religion.

[SauronOfMordor]

Esprit de corps has evaporated. Last year, wearing a uniform at official Scout events became optional. Scoutmasters were deprived of the authority to demand the wearing of uniforms. "It's time to stop bickering about the clothes we wear," said Ms. Bonita Brick, chair of the National Scouts Youth Committee that handed down the uniform decision. "Accept the reality of change."

Boy Scouting's doom was sealed when they allowed women and girlie-men into positions of authority

[Zionist Conspirator]

Are atheists refused treatment in Catholic hospitals? My father was treated in St Anthony's hospital in Amarillo and I don't remember them even asking if he believed in God.

Wow. Just . . . wow.

I've never seen anyone's stream of thought engage in a move like that before.

Aren't you dizzy after something like that?

Besides, life is merely a combination of biochemical reactions. It means nothing. Stop worrying about things.

[Zionist Conspirator]

All religion should be out of public schools. That's what Sunday School and Kill the Infidel Academies are for.

Uh uh uh, no such thing as "should."

But at least it's good to know you don't think secular schools should be teaching religious things like "thou shalt not kill" or "thou shalt not steal." I just hope you don't think they should teach your hang-ups about where your taxes go. That would be hypocritical and inconsistent.

[gcruse]

. BSA (as well as religious groups, in general)...
should be based on the contribution a group makes to society as a whole...
you can't force a synagogue to Bar Mitzvah a 13-year old Muslim

Your first example implies the BSA is a religious group and the next two examples could be said to describe religions.  The religions have their tax breaks and exemptions thanks to the First Amendment. If the BSA isn't a religion, why should it get FA benefits?