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Illinois senate race, Version 2.0
Oak Lawn (IL) Reporter ^ | 8/12/04 | Michael M. Bates

Posted on 08/11/2004 5:42:04 AM PDT by Mike Bates

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1 posted on 08/11/2004 5:42:05 AM PDT by Mike Bates
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To: Mike Bates

Are there any polls out yet ?


2 posted on 08/11/2004 5:42:45 AM PDT by BSunday
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To: Mike Bates

For a couple of hundred years, the U.S. Constitution has simply required a senatorial candidate "be an Inhabitant of that State for which he shall be chosen."

Actually the Constitution provided for the state legislatures to select the senators representing that state. The 17th amendment put an end to that, opening the door to carpetbaggers, professional fund-raisers and individuals of sufficient personal wealth to buy their seat.


3 posted on 08/11/2004 6:01:57 AM PDT by Ozone34
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To: BSunday

CBS 2 Chicago says Obama 67% Keyes 28%.


4 posted on 08/11/2004 6:08:54 AM PDT by TheBigB (I'm more frustrated than a legless Ethiopian watching a doughnut roll down a hill.)
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To: BSunday
Are there any polls out yet ?

I've heard of a couple, and Alan's getting creamed. I think he'll pick up steam over the next few weeks. At least I hope so.

5 posted on 08/11/2004 6:31:56 AM PDT by Mike Bates (Did I mention I'm peddling a book?)
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To: Ozone34

The popular election of senators was not a major improvement. For one thing, it reduced the power of the individual states.


6 posted on 08/11/2004 6:33:30 AM PDT by Mike Bates (Did I mention I'm peddling a book?)
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To: Ozone34
Actually the Constitution provided for the state legislatures to select the senators representing that state. The 17th amendment put an end to that, opening the door to carpetbaggers, professional fund-raisers and individuals of sufficient personal wealth to buy their seat.

One of the biggest mistakes our nation has ever made. The direct election of Senators sounded the final death knell for the concept of federalism.

7 posted on 08/11/2004 6:42:24 AM PDT by zeugma (The Great Experiment is over and the Constitution is dead.)
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To: Mike Bates
For one thing, it reduced the power of the individual states.

Don't you mean that it reduced the power of a State's elected (and, perhaps, unelected) officials who would otherwise have chosen the State's senator, and transferred that power to the State's electorate?
8 posted on 08/11/2004 6:53:52 AM PDT by BikerNYC
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To: Mike Bates
He speaks in complete sentences, and uses logic and thoughtful reasoning. Whether this will fly with Illinois voters is uncertain.

That could definitely hurt Keyes. Hasn't that been outlawed as "hate speech" in Chicago and other urban centers?

9 posted on 08/11/2004 6:54:45 AM PDT by TigersEye (Intellectuals only exist if you think they do!)
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To: BikerNYC
Don't you mean that it reduced the power of a State's elected (and, perhaps, unelected) officials who would otherwise have chosen the State's senator, and transferred that power to the State's electorate?

Except for the unelected part you are right. (state legislators are all elected I think) And it has been to the ruination of the Republic and a net loss in state's powers.

10 posted on 08/11/2004 7:00:03 AM PDT by TigersEye (Intellectuals only exist if you think they do!)
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To: TigersEye

Why is a State's power identified by the wishes and interests of its elected officials and not by the wishes and interests of its electorate?


11 posted on 08/11/2004 7:06:06 AM PDT by BikerNYC
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To: All
Two other Keyes-Omamba articles:

Obama's backpedaling is a disappointment

Keyes says he wants rumble with Obama

12 posted on 08/11/2004 7:07:52 AM PDT by TigersEye (Intellectuals only exist if you think they do!)
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To: BikerNYC
The Founders intended members of the House to represent their constituents; Senators were expected to represent their states. Bruce Bartlett has written:

The 17th amendment was ratified in 1913. It is no coincidence that the sharp rise in the size and power of the federal government starts in this year (the 16th amendment, establishing a federal income tax, ratified the same year, was also important). As George Mason University law professor Todd Zywicki has noted, prior to the 17th amendment, senators resisted delegating power to Washington in order to keep it at the state and local level. “As a result, the long term size of the federal government remained fairly stable during the pre-Seventeenth Amendment era,” he wrote.

13 posted on 08/11/2004 7:36:47 AM PDT by Mike Bates (Did I mention I'm peddling a book?)
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To: Mike Bates; TheBigB

I think the polls should rightly read Obama (number), Republican Candidate (number) because in the public perception they are probably still voting against Ryan. Once they get used to the idea of Keyes and hear what he says, his numbers will definitely go up.


14 posted on 08/11/2004 7:46:48 AM PDT by BSunday
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To: Mike Bates
...Senators were expected to represent their states.

I understand the point, but what state interests does a Senator have to represent other than the interests of the state's electorate?

If senatorial candidate John Smith receives a majority of votes promising to represent the interests of the electorate in a particular way in matters x, y, and z, and he does so, what interests of the State is he not representing by carrying out the will of the electorate?

As George Mason University law professor Todd Zywicki has noted, prior to the 17th amendment, senators resisted delegating power to Washington in order to keep it at the state and local level.

Why would the direct election of senators contribute to a senator's delagating power to Washington over keeping power at the state and local level? I don't see a causal connection there.
15 posted on 08/11/2004 7:47:16 AM PDT by BikerNYC
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To: BikerNYC
Originally the electorate influenced the U.S. Senate through their legislators whom they elected. Each state could set their own term lengths and other electoral particulars for that. The legislators were presumed to represent the state's interests as a whole as that is what they were elected to do. They appointed a U.S. Senator to represent the state's interests in the Federal Congress.

The electorate had their own interests more closely represented, by district, apportioned by population, through their Congressmen. That is why Congressmen have shorter terms than Senators so that the electorate could more rapidly address their ever changing wishes in Congress. Senators were presumed to be chosen for their abilities by a more stable and better informed body than the electorate, the state's legislature. That is what they were hired to do by the electorate. Manage the interests of the state.

Now Senators are hired by the electorate, two per state, no apportioning, and go off to D.C. for six years where they entrench themselves in a self-protecting bureaucracy where they are unanswerable to state officials by censure or recall and nearly unanswerable to the electorate having found an unlimited trough of re-election funds and a good-old-boy re-election support network.

The Senate was to be a check on the House. The House, working directly for the people, would craft laws and treaties and bills. The Senate (which could also do those things) would represent the individual state's interests. The Senate, being longer tenured and more narrowly chosen, was to be the august tempering body that kept the more mercurial, temporal and widely dispersed interests of the House in check.

The state loses power to the feds because they must now grovel at a Congress's feet for authority and money. (One is usually tied to the other it seems.) So now both Senators and Congressmen are elected by popular vote which is fickle, being relatively easily manipulated in comparison to state officials, and self interested rather than interested in the state's sovereignty and welfare.

The 17th Amendment was a bill of goods sold to the people with the basic slogan of the Dems after election 2000; "the people are being disenfranchised." It was a way for the feds to consolidate more power and the people who pushed for it knew that. They were well aware of the maxim of pure democracies, to paraphrase; "once the people find that they can vote themselves largesse from the government they will do so until it is bankrupt." For wannabe petty tyrants that's a great thing. The more instability there is the more power they can assume. It was a major and necessary step towards socialism and the eventual dictatorship that we will have.

Next step: Woodrow Wilson and the League of Nations.

Next step: FDR and Supreme Court supremacy.

16 posted on 08/11/2004 7:47:17 AM PDT by TigersEye (Intellectuals only exist if you think they do!)
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To: Mike Bates

Actually the 17th Amendment was never legally ratified. Spilled milk now.


17 posted on 08/11/2004 7:48:59 AM PDT by TigersEye (Intellectuals only exist if you think they do!)
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To: TigersEye
Senators were presumed to be chosen for their abilities by a more stable and better informed body than the electorate, the state's legislature.

That is the weakness of the entire argument. More stable and better informed? Give me a break. State elected officials are just as entrenched in the "self-protecting bureaucracy" of state government.

Prior to the 17th Amendment, just under 17% (one-half of one-third) of the federal government was directly elected by the electorate. Now 33% is so elected. I don't think that is a bad thing.
18 posted on 08/11/2004 7:53:51 AM PDT by BikerNYC
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To: Mike Bates
He speaks in complete sentences, and uses logic and thoughtful reasoning. Whether this will fly with Illinois voters is uncertain.

LOL. Did you intend that to be funny?

19 posted on 08/11/2004 7:56:59 AM PDT by Zack Nguyen
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To: Zack Nguyen

Not to mention sardonic. Thanks.


20 posted on 08/11/2004 8:01:25 AM PDT by Mike Bates (Did I mention I'm peddling a book?)
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