Dershowitz On Presbyterian Anti-Israel Decision

Israel National News ^ | 10 Aug 04

[Steve_Seattle]

"Someone above asked if AD supports Pres. Bush's WOT...I don't know...but this makes it sound like if AD doesn't, then he's so internally conflicted that he'll soon explode."

He's always been wound pretty tight, so it might happen.

[Akira]

From what I know about AD, he's a very pro-Israel liberal Democrat. Oxymoron, but I guess it works for him.

The VAST majority of Jews in the US vote Democrat, whereas Bush is much more popular in Israel.

[Mamzelle]

Just looked at newsmeat--AD is typical Jewish NE liberal. He may talk pro-Israel, but he donated to Kerry in May of this year.

Unless he wants to say that Kerry would lift a finger to help Israel against the Muslim world?

Our Man From F.R.A.N.C.E.? Don't think so.

[Revenge of Sith]

Isn't Dershowitz also an agnostic?

[Montaignes Cat]

As for PCUSA being a dying denomination, I searched the Western Pennsylvania 152XX zipcodes at their website (pcusa.org) and found a long list of churches, including two of the wealthiest and most powerful churches in this area, Shadyside Presbyterian and Fox Chapel Presbyterian .

[Cincinna]

With so many true nations to boycot, where real genocide, discrimination, terror to boycott,it is not strange that The Presbyterian Church (USA) has aligned itself with the Islamo-fascist supporting, anti-Zionist, hate America left.
Those trying to shroud their anti-Semitism in the guise of anti-Zionism fool no one.
David Horowitz on his http://www.frontpage.org has explored the Academic connection to this vile movement.
Bravo to Dershowitz for having the courage to take on The Presbyterian Church (USA).

[Montaignes Cat]

Dershowitz published a book this year, "Why Terrorism Works," which is a strong endorsement of the WOT, and calls for a deeper understanding of the enemy on our part, and gives a legal justification for extremely strong tactics we may have to employ.

[wideawake]

As for PCUSA being a dying denomination, I searched the Western Pennsylvania 152XX zipcodes at their website (pcusa.org) and found a long list of churches, including two of the wealthiest and most powerful churches in this area, Shadyside Presbyterian and Fox Chapel Presbyterian.

The Episcopal Church in America is probably ten times wealthier than the PCUSA and probably has a much longer list of church properties as well.

Yet it is even smaller in numbers than the PCUSA.

The PCUSA, like the Episcopals, have lost touch with the central tenets of their own founders and is probably less than half the size it was 25 years ago.

There is no point in being an English-speaking Presbyterian anyway if you do not assent to the Westminster Confession.

The PCUSA is dying and will need to merge with some other denominations or it will cease to exist.

[Cincinna]

SORRY FOR THE URL ERROR. Here is the correction:
David Horowitz on his http://www.frontpagemag.org has explored the Academic connection to this vile movement.
Bravo to Dershowitz for having the courage to take on The Presbyterian Church (USA).


With so many true nations to boycot, where real genocide, discrimination, terror to boycott,it is not strange that The Presbyterian Church (USA) has aligned itself with the Islamo-fascist supporting, anti-Zionist, hate America left.
Those trying to shroud their anti-Semitism in the guise of anti-Zionism fool no one.

[PresbyRev]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1187430/posts

Dershowitz' piece was posted previously with some good replies from different perspectives.

[PresbyRev]

You may want to do some research on real numbers as your assertions are incorrect.

[Aetius]

That's an interesting question; how do far lefties like Dershowitz feel about the fact that the most ardent supporters of Israel in the US are evangelical Christians, who oppose him on almost all other issues.

Though I will say one thing for Dershowitz: I once heard him talking about judicial activism and he seemed to be somewhat reasonable on it. I can't remember which, but he said that either the Second Amendment clearly protects an individual right to own guns, or that he felt that the Roe v Wade decision had been improperly decided and that abortion should have been left to the states to decide. He may have said both, I'm not sure, but I'm sure that he said one of the two, and that's rare for a liberal law professor.

[Zionist Conspirator]

Thanks for sharing your observations. I'm still waiting to see who Dersh will endorse (if anyone).

This is going to be a most interesting election for Dersh watchers!

[PresbyRev]

http://www.preteristarchive.com/Jesus_is_Israel/knox-theological_az_01.html

Questioning the tenets of Zionism does not equal alignment with anti-semites, leftists or fascists.

The link above is a statement promulgated by conservative, evangelical Christians, many of them PCA'ers, who caution against the error of Zionism.

As I stated on the duplicate (and previous) thread, I support the state of Israel. I support their war against terror and right to exist - they are a liberal democracy that we should support in spite of their failings.

That said, I won't offer the secular state of Israel my unqualified support and allegiance. It is not my country. And, there are Palestinian Christians - my sympathies are first with them in the Israel-Palestinian conflict as they are often caught between a rock and a hard place.

Folks are right, I think, to criticize us, the PCUSA, for failing to issue similar studies (nothing has been decided on the issue of divestment, only a study was approved) on divesting from Saudi Arabia or Sudan.

[Akira]

Isn't Dershowitz also an agnostic?

I didn't think so, but I am not 100% sure.

[wideawake]

Well then, correct me.

I'm willing to read any stats you care to provide.

[uncbob]

Screw you Allan

Now that your left wing buddies come out to screw Israel you see the light

[GSlob]

"It is their attitude that is bigoted."
No more (and no less) than any other boycott. It is that church's money, and let us hope they find better investment opportunities somewhere else.

[PresbyRev]

The Episcopal Church in America is probably ten times wealthier than the PCUSA and probably has a much longer list of church properties as well.

The PCUSA controls more financial assets/liquidity than the ECUSA. Check out the Presbyterian Foundation for stats and figures. Colleges, universities and seminaries outstrip the ECUSA. That said, the assets are much of the reason both conservatives and liberals remain together in the denomination - theological convictions about unity aside. Many a conservative/orthodox PCUSA'er is loathe to see the financial legacy and heritage built on the blood, sweat, tears, prayers and good faith of past generations given over to Sophia-worshiping gnostics, by cutting and running in a schism. Perhaps it would be better in some sense if the assets and finances were not there, but they are, and God's people are to wisely use covenant wealth to build the kingdom.

The PCUSA, like the Episcopals, have lost touch with the central tenets of their own founders and is probably less than half the size it was 25 years ago.

2,560,201 versus 4,000,000 is about the look of membership attrition since the boomers and hippies of the 1960's began moving into leadership positions. A serious loss of members, but not half.

There is no point in being an English-speaking Presbyterian anyway if you do not assent to the Westminster Confession.

Since 1729 and the Adopting Act, teaching and ruling elders in the Presbyterian Church have had to affirm and receive the WCF in its essential tenets, without strict subscription. I know of no Presbyterian whether USA, PCA, ARP, et.al. who affirms and conforms to the Westminster Standards in their entirety without exception or scruple.

The Reformed tradition is a confessional tradition different from the Lutherans in that sense. The Reformed faith issues confessions to confess the Gospel in different situations and circumstances that call for a fresh restatement of the Gospel in the language and idiom of a particular context - for instance the Theological Declaration of Barmen, the Confession of 1967 and so on. Given too that there are more Presbyterians now in Kenya, Nigeria and Sudan than the U.S. who are formulating and confessing the faith for the 21st century in Africa, slavish subscription to the WS is becoming a moot point.

The PCUSA is dying and will need to merge with some other denominations or it will cease to exist.

There are a good number of denominations smaller than the PCUSA. I'll think we'll be just fine. The trend seems to be that top heavy bureaucratic denominations ARE dying - being replaced with networks, still within discernable denominational families or theological traditions (Calvinist, Lutheran, Baptist, etc.), bound not by a central HQ, but by theological and doctrinal affinity. For instance, there is more community and sense of unity between renewal/orthodox Methodists, Presbyterians and Congregationalists than between liberals and conservatives of the same denomination.

[xzins]

Questioning the tenets of Zionism does not equal alignment with anti-semites, leftists or fascists.

The old adage is "the friend of enemy is my enemy."

There is nothing more anti-semitic than those in Palestine who wish to drive Israel into the ocean....the point, of course, being to kill them all (genocide.)

The friend of the anti-semite enemy is my enemy who MIGHT AS WELL BE an anti-semite.

Now, your first loyalty is not to Palestinian Christians above Israel. Your first loyalty is to the truth.

All truth is of God...I am the way, the truth, and the life...