Posted on 08/07/2004 2:28:51 PM PDT by PatrickHenry
And God is proven how?
OK. So what would an "uncreated" object look like? By what signs would you know it was uncreated?
Less, because although we have new-agers and environmentalists running around, babbling about how the sacredness of the planet demands that we stop burning gasoline, the loonies have yet to figure out how to convert the whole universe into a left-wing political movement.
This discussion has nothing whatever to do with chemistry or any other physical process. A metaphysical discussion has to do with being as such, not particular types of beings.
I didn't misunderstand you. You asked for evidence of God's existence. One valid type of argument for the existence of anything is to start with the premise that the thing does not exist, and see where it leads. The proposition that God does not exist ultimately leads to the proposition that nothing exists. And the proposition that nothing exists is contradicted by experience.
After hearing such a convincing argument, you'ed think the whole world would believe.
Quite bizarrely on the one hand, Lee objects to the non-falsifiability of the anthropic principle (Indeed a valid objection--as readers of evolution threads know, I am a sort of hyper-Popperian in that I insist that not only should scientific theories in the small sense be falsifable, but that the applicability of the formalisms on which they are based be falsifiable.). On the other hand, he proposes the unfalsifiable theory that black-holes spawn other universes--another universe is by definition impossible to observe, and thus its existence or non-existence is unfalsifiable. (I also object very strongly to the 'many worlds' interpretation of quantum mechanics both on Popperian grounds and on the basis of Occam's Razor.) Limiting the discussion to the physical universe in which we find ourselves, which for reasons of observability is a necessity if one proposes to pursue emperical science, he replaces the unobservable, unfalsifiable Divine First Cause with an equally unobservable, unfalsifiable First-Cause-as-a-black-hole-in-another-universe.
God is not proven. And that wasn't the point of discussion.
The point of discussion was "show me the scientific evidence for God's existence".
The scientific evidence for the existence of God is all around you.
It can easily proven that intelligent design and creation exists, and is extremely common.
It cannot be proven that evolution occurs, has occured, or will occur. Ever.
Therefore, intelligent design is by far the most plausible explanation, based on the "scientific" evidence.
God cannot be proven or disproven by logic. He lives in your heart or He does not.
Sorry, but that burden is entirely yours.
So far as I know, there are no uncreated objects.
Show how science proves all that exists can be known by science.
The other day, I was dealt the K, J, 9 and 4 of Spades, the Q, 10, 8 of Hearts, the 7, and 4 of Diamonds, and the A, 7, 5 and 2 of Clubs. The probability of getting such a hand is exactly the same as of getting all Clubs. The Anthropic Principle is equivalent to saying that my outcome was so unlikely that the deck must have been stacked.
Someone (PH, your or VR, maybe) called it the "Fallacy of Retrospective Astonishment." Acceptance of the Anthropic Principle means assuming that the universe is completely deterministic (otherwise, something different may have occured, he said Candidely).
There is a specific heading "Did God have a beginning?" but the information preceding it is important to "building up" to the answer in my musings.
Alright. In that case, uncreated things are made of atoms.
(Do you want to re-think leaving the choice up to me?)
The difference is when the first hand is only one of a very large number of worthless hands, and all Clubs wins you the jackpot. The odds of getting the jackpot hand are exceedingly small. The odds of getting a worthless hand is quite large.
No.
Material things were created by God as He has revealed in the Bible. Science evidently concurs.
All created things are made of atoms. So there is nothing to differential uncreated from created objects in that.
(Do you want to re-think leaving the choice up to me?)
Nope.
BTTT
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