Actually, I've wondered for a while about a slightly different scenario...
As we know Kerry has claimed that he and most soldiers/sailors in Vietnam committed atrocities.
Well, one of the most powerful tricks your mind does to protect itself from a reality you don't want to deal with is projection. So perhaps, unlike the vast majority of our military, Kerry *did* commit war crimes as he has claimed. Kerry can't deal with what he does so he starts claiming all vets have done the same sort of things. Perhaps he and those on stage with him committed these crimes together.
It gives a powerful reason for why Kerry betrayed his comrades when he came back calling them rampaging mongols and why a small group continues to defend him.
Interesting hypothesis. I suspect these people have been worked over in numerous ways for years now, but Kerry and his staffers.
OT
Pres. Bush is fishing. OLN
I saw that post too. There were several from RiverRat in that thread. Somewhat understandable, but in this situation, men of good conscience need to stand up.
Between the Boston papers, Bill O'Reilly(I will never forgive him) and Susan Estrich(please please GO AWAY!) the swiftboatvets need to get on the offense.
There are lots of little questions like yours. They did get a lot of medals - Bronze Stars with V, Navy Commendation medals with V etc....
I'd like to see their service records.
I'd like to see whose payroll they are on right now.
Sometimes and OIC can do other little favors. They only did 18 patrols in 48 days. Most patrols are less than 24 hours. Sometimes when a boat would go out on it's own, they probably didn't really patrol. They went out to take 8MM movies and smoke some pot. The crew would love that.
Also I gather as Kerry was leaving, his crew complained about being left behind and he got them transferred.
One other thing bothers me.
That Green Beret Kerry risked his life to save and get the Bronze Star. Most (if not all) PCFs hard cargo nets draped over their bows. If a man is in the water and not injured all that is required is to bring the bow to him, let him hook his arm through the cargo net and get the hell out of there. No reason to stop the boat and haul him out of the water while under fire.
This is actually supported by reports from the crews of other boats on the scene that said there was no enemy fire at that time.
Someone else (the GB?) claims that Kerry was shot. Kerry was NEVER hit by a bullet.
There may be something to the "shared atrocity" theory.
How does someone maintain a 35 year relationship with five or six guys you served with for about two months? Kerry skippered two boats for about two months each, which means 10 men served under him. I believe Kerry initiated and nurtured this relationship to further hhis political ambitions. You don't go to Vietnam with your journal, camera, and a desire to accumulate medals without thinking about the future. Kerry fancied himself another JFK, by self-admission, and liked the idea of having his own version of PT-109.
Although he failed in his first run for office, Kerry used his Band of Brothers as political props for over 25 years. He used his status as a decorated war hero to intimidate his political opponents who did not serve. On the other hand, he could use his role as an antiwar spokesman, which propelled him on the national stage at the age of 27.
As Kerry rose in prominence from Lt. Gov to Senator, the Band of Brothers went along with him to experience the rarified air of being associated with a celebrity and power broker. I am sure Kerry did favors for them, as he could as a prominent politician. He must have paid their way to accompany him during his campaigns and invited them to various functions over the years. It was good to have a US Senator as a friend and supporter, especially a very rich one after he married Teresa in 1995, just a year before his toughest reelection campaign. Who doesn't like Santa Claus?
Kerry didn't maintain that same kind of relationship with his peers (except Skip Barker) because they were not his subordinates and considered him an ineffectual jerk by and large.
Kerry's Band of Brothers are held together less by friendship and more by a mutually beneficial relationship, material and psychic. I would be interested to learn more about the Band of Brothers in terms of their military records and lives since they left the military. There is a story there for anyone who wants to check it out.
I agree. IMHO, kerry bought them off with undeserved medals, and now they're ashamed to admit it. Plus te full weight of the RAT goon squads is on them now.
On FNC Special Report (of Aug 4 Wed), Fred Barnes suggested that one side or the other was lying and much of the dispute could be resolved with research. I hope he takes his own assignment.
Gigilo John became a celebrity. His lies about his service allowed all these other to integrate their lies with his. Who, after 25 years of marginal achievement, would question anythng? But now, after lying to their kids about how they won the war with Traitor John, some one says, "BS, that's not how it was!"
In terms of the lies men tell, military for exceeds sex or wealth. Who can dispute my stories about my near death experiences behind enemy lines? My wife will gig me if I mention the blonds and my ex-wife's lawyers will get me if I mention wealth. The pro-Kerry guys have just been caught up in the lies they've been telling for 25 years.
I happened to catch a cspan broadcast from DNC today. They were talking to young democrats, mentioned a strategy of "visiting message boards". I wonder if the RNC advises this to its volunteers?
That chap Rassman (sp?) who so strongly supports kerry, who was dumped overboard by kerry and for whom Kerry turned back, and whom kerry fished out of the water ... given all his other actions, I've wondered what would make jfk for once in his life act unselfishly, and risk his sense of security to do that. This brings me to the conclusion that all this support the paltry number of Swift Boat vets give could simply be because kerry, in his own sick little way, formed some kind of fraternal bond with Rassman and the other four, or however many, in the birds of a feather tradition.
By that I mean, simply, they could all be as weird as he is.
I have one more hypothesis, based on what I've learned about the Navy as a reservist and based on my reading of John Kerry's personality.
Imagine you're a sailor joining as an enlisted man. During basic training and training in a specialty, you will have personal contact with very few officers. You are taught to salute the officers and say hello, but personal interaction is discouraged beyond the formalities.
You and the other enlisted men will see the officers as living in a different world. You may respect some, and consider others jerks. But your feelings are rarely strong because of the minimal personal interaction. You do have a feeling that the officers have a world where you're not included. You understand the need for the separation, but it's always a bit of a blow to the ego.
For up to a year, you live in this world. Now, you get assigned to a swift boat. This boat is commanded by a man name John Kerry.
John Kerry at that age already knows he wants to be president. John Kerry knows it won't do any good to have a crew that mocks his command. Kerry seeks out the friendship of the enlisted men. The enlisted men, long blocked out of the officer's world, suddenly feel included. Lieutenant Kerry actually cares what I think! Lieutenant Kerry treats me as an equal!
They may have thought it was a little strange when he hauls out the camera and does re-enactments. But Kerry assures everyone it's all in good fun, and fun is a precious commodity in Vietnam. And if some beer was passed around the boat on a slow day, Lieutenant Kerry was hardly going to risk getting anyone mad.
Most enlisted men would take a great liking to such an officer. All Kerry would demand of the enlisted men is that he continue to be the center of attention. That's a small price to pay for having an officer who gives you so much respect. And Kerry probably regularly mentions how lucky you are to serve on his boat, rather than the boats of certain other officers that don't appreciate their crew as much. You believe him, and feel grateful.
But say you're a fellow officer. How would you feel about such a backstabbing prima donna? It becomes obvious to you that Kerry cares more about his ego and future political career than the safety of the fleet. Kerry figures that his fellow officers aren't going to be his route to fame, so he disdains them in favor of making his movies with the enlisted guys.
This hypothesis fits in well with what we're seeing today. Thoughts?
Trident/Delta,Bump.
There are likely several different motives at work, mutually reinforcing each other and varying from one member of Kerry's boat crew to another. Here's another motive to add to the stew: the desire to have a mark of distinction through association with a public figure.
Who would pay much attention to any of Kerry's boat crew unless they told flattering "war stories" about him? He is famous and successful and they have hitched themselves to him, like little sucker fish.
As for the swift boat vets who are hostile to Kerry, I am inclined to believe them on appearances alone. In years of opposition research work, I have found to my surprise that allegations against a candidate from people who know him almost always have an element of truth, even if murky on the facts.
For real whoppers, look to the flattering claims and stories that a candidate tells about himself and their explanations about negative information. Unless the news media dislike a candidate, they rarely give close scrutiny to a candidate's biographical claims.
Oddly, for some candidates and public officials, there is a sense of thrill and a boost to the ego in being able to tell lies and embellishments in public and get away with it. In such cases, a political career is not just something that they do but is integral to their conception of who they are.
The worst liars as candidates tend to be those who from their youth desperately wanted to be in public office and whose campaign pitch has a large element of self-praise and does not put the primary focus on issues. In the worst cases, they seem to have what psychologists call borderline personality disorder and have a nasty underside to them.
Kerry, who is living out his youthful ambition to be president, fits the profile of the self-obsessed politician. In office, his lying, dishonesty, and viciousness toward opponents would be of Clintonian proportions and potentially deadly to the country.
The Boston Globe
June 16, 2003
HEROISM, AND GROWING CONCERN ABOUT WAR
BY MICHAEL KRANISH, GLOBE STAFF(snip)
But Kerry went back in the rivers. Indeed, it was after this meeting that he began his most deadly round of combat. Within days of the Saigon meeting, he joined a five-man crew on swift boat No. 94 on a series of missions in which he won the Silver Star, the Bronze Star, and two of his three Purple Hearts. Starting in late January 1969, this crew completed 18 missions over an intense and dangerous 48 days, almost all of them in the dense jungles of the Mekong Delta.
Kerry's crew included engineman Eugene Thorson, later an Iowa cement mason; David Alston, then the crew's only African-American and today a minister in South Carolina; petty officer Delbert Sandusky of Illinois; rear gunner and quartermaster Michael Medeiros of California; and the late Tom Belodeau, who joined the crew fresh out of Chelmsford High School in Massachusetts. Others rotated in and out of the crew.(snip)
Kerry's early departure meant that he was leaving behind a crew that had suffered through many bloody battles with him. Worried that crew members would be killed, he arranged for them to receive a safer assignment. When one crew member, [Michael] Medeiros, tried to stay, Kerry "came and talked to me and said, 'I really would like you to go. . . . I'd like to know you are safe, or safer.' "
Same kind of thought occurred to me. But I don't think they needed prompting to stick by Kerry. I'm sure that other crews couldn't help noticing how the guys on Kerry's boat kept coming back with stories of stirring action and daring-do worthy of Horatio Hornblower, Admiral of the High Seas while all they did was plink a few scared teenagers who couldn't shoot a rocker launcher straight. While it was dangerous, frightening and unappealing duty, it was not the kind of thing they give medals for, was it?
Everyone probably realized that "grade inflation" had taken over in Kerry's boat, the crew went along with it and no one else wanted to call them liars.
The leader brings the skeleton and gets the others to chain to it as well. They then trade one dark sin for another. And the brotherhood becomes strengthened.