Posted on 08/06/2004 7:41:24 AM PDT by nypokerface
BAGHDAD, Iraq - Coalition forces battled militiamen loyal to radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr in several Iraqi cities Friday, saying they killed about 300 militants in Najaf over two days of fighting. Battles in other Shiite areas of the country have killed dozens more, according to Iraqi authorities.
The death toll among the anti-coalition fighters was among the largest in a single continuing engagement since the end of the war to oust Saddam Hussein last year.
Two U.S. Marines and an American soldier were killed in Najaf on Thursday, and 12 troops were wounded, the military said. Fifteen U.S. soldiers were wounded in Baghdad.
In Najaf, 100 miles south of Baghdad, U.S. helicopters on Friday attacked militants hiding in a cemetery near the Imam Ali Shrine in the old city at Najaf's center, where smoke could be seen rising. The fighting began Thursday in Najaf and has since spread to other Shiite areas across the country, as the truce that marked an end to a similar rebellion two months ago appeared to have been shattered.
Al-Sadr blamed the United States for the violence in Iraq in a sermon read on his behalf Friday in the Kufa Mosque close to Najaf.
The interim government had called America "our partner," he said. "I say America is our enemy and the enemy of the people, and we will not accept its partnership."
Regardless, al-Sadr's aides called Friday for a return to the truce. They asked for the United Nations and Iraq's interim government to stop the violence.
"From our side we did not want to escalate the situation, because the situation in Najaf affects that of other Shiite areas," Mahmoud al-Sudani, a spokesman of al-Sadr in Baghdad, told reporters. "But the actions of the American troops have enraged the sons of these cities."
But the government said Friday it would not tolerate independent militias, including the Mahdi Army.
The militias "are considered criminal and terrorist groups that we do not condone and that we will fight," said Georges Sada, spokesman for interim Prime Minister Ayad Allawi. "We will fight them and will not allow their criminal actions in the various cities, irrespective of who they are or how big they are."
In April, the Mahdi Army militia launched sustained attacks on U.S. and coalition troops in several cities, the first major Shiite violence against the Americans. The confrontation dragged on for two months until Iraqi politicians and religious leaders negotiated a series of truces.
Each side blamed the other for breaking the cease-fire. The U.S. military accused the militants of repeatedly attacking police in Najaf, and al-Sadr loyalists accused U.S. forces of surrounding the cleric's house Monday.
Some of the worst violence hit the Baghdad neighborhood of Sadr City, where the Health Ministry said 19 people were killed and 111 wounded during fighting Thursday and early Friday between U.S. troops and al-Sadr militants. Separate attacks blamed on al-Sadr's followers wounded 15 American soldiers in Baghdad.
Militiamen also seized four police stations in Amarah, 180 miles southeast of Baghdad, witnesses said.
On Friday, helicopter gunships pounded militant positions in Najaf, while Italian soldiers exchanged gunfire with militants who attacked their positions and a police station in the southern city of Nasiriyah, an Italian military spokesman said. Clashes also were reported Friday between U.S. troops and insurgents north of the capital in Samarra.
In the Najaf cemetery, gunfire and explosions rang out as U.S. soldiers and Iraqi policemen advanced toward the area, witnesses said. The streets were otherwise deserted and shops were closed.
"The area near the (Imam Ali Shrine) is being subjected to a war," said Ahmed al-Shaibany, an official with al-Sadr's office in Najaf. "Najaf is being subjected to ... total destruction.
"We call on the Islamic world and the civilized world to save the city."
The U.S. military has accused the militants of hiding in the shrine compound to avoid retaliation by U.S. forces. It had no comment on Friday's clashes.
Smoke billowed over parts of Najaf as roadside stalls burned. Many shops were closed, the streets were nearly deserted and a woman's body lay abandoned on an empty sidewalk, according to Associated Press Television News footage.
"We estimate we've killed 300 anti-Iraqi forces in the past two days of fighting," said Capt. Carrie Batson, a Marine spokeswoman.
Battles in Najaf have killed at least 13 civilians and wounded 58 others over two days, according to Najaf General Hospital officials.
The U.S. military said two Marines, one soldier and seven militants were killed Thursday in and around Najaf. At least 921 U.S. service members have died since the beginning of military operations in Iraq in March 2003, according to the Defense Department.
In Samarra, 60 miles north of Baghdad, guerrillas attacked a convoy of 10 U.S. Humvees at dawn, witnesses said. U.S. helicopters fired rockets at insurgent positions, and the U.S. convoy pulled out.
In the southern city of Nasiriyah, assailants attacked Italian troops with automatic weapons, an Italian military spokesman said on condition of anonymity. They also attacked a police station, prompting the local governor to call for Italian military assistance, he said. There were no coalition casualties, the spokesman said.
The fighting, which lasted until dawn Friday, killed eight Iraqis, including five militants, and wounded 13 others, according to AbdelKhuder al-Tahir, a senior Interior Ministry official.
"Today, the city is more stable. Policemen and National Guard are in control of government buildings on one side of the city, while Italian forces are in control of the other side. Some of al-Sadr's followers are moving in the center of the city, but the rest of the city is under our control," he said.
A coalition base near Najaf, Camp Golf, was hit by mortar fire early Friday, while rounds fired at a base housing Ukrainian troops missed their target, a Polish military spokesman said. No one was hurt.
Tensions also ran high in the southern city of Basra, where British troops clashed Thursday with the Mahdi Army. Violence there killed five al-Sadr fighters, said As'ad al-Basri, an al-Sadr official in the city.
Meanwhile, Lebanese officials said four citizens working as truck drivers are missing in Iraq, bringing to five the number of Lebanese citizens either unaccounted for or held captive by insurgents. A Foreign Ministry official said the government was trying to learn if the four were kidnapped.
Paging Allah, paging Allah, need another 1000000 virgins stat!!!!!!!
Just ONE TIME, please read the link on what the ARMY considers the best policy (and by the way, I know that this is the MARINES' view too).
Otherwise, we have to conclude that you are just so much smarter than our officers who make killing their business. (And business is good).
To quote Major Payne, "Killin' is mah business, an' business is goooooood."
Al Sadr as the Black Night
BLACK KNIGHT:
Come here!
ARTHUR:
What are you going to do, bleed on me?
BLACK KNIGHT:
I'm invincible!
ARTHUR:
You're a looney.
BLACK KNIGHT:
The Black Knight always triumphs! Have at you! Come on, then.
[whop]
[ARTHUR chops the BLACK KNIGHT's last leg off]
BLACK KNIGHT:
Oh? All right, we'll call it a draw.
ARTHUR:
Come, Patsy.
BLACK KNIGHT:
Oh. Oh, I see. Running away, eh? You yellow bastards! Come back here and take what's coming to you. I'll bite your legs off!
You bet!
""The area near the (Imam Ali Shrine) is being subjected to a war," said Ahmed al-Shaibany, an official with al-Sadr's office in Najaf. "Najaf is being subjected to ... total destruction."
Just one time I would like to believe what these rats say ....
Spout?
Yeah, fighting with one hand tied behind our backs served us well in Korea and Vietnam.
And leaving thugs in power really served us well in Gulf War I.
The only policy that has ever seemed to work is total and complete victory (through annihilation) of the enemy.
Thanks for the Grozny link post. Very informative
You know, I'm still searching for the lesson that says "keep the leader of the terrorists alive."
Maybe you can point it out to me.
100:1 kill ratio. I'd say our boys are getting pretty good at this.
Given the arrests in Pakistan, we are making HUGE PROGRESS in the overall war on terror, and it is also the case that in Iraq things have gotten SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER in the last few months.
in April and May, Al-Sadr ran around and had his thugs on the streets of these cities for almost 4 weeks ... now, he lasted no more than 2 days and he's crying 'uncle'. not only that, but IRAQI POLICE ARE MUCH MORE CAPABLE NOW and have been taking on the thugs themselves in many cases.
Good Guys - US - are winning!
"Russian lessons learned during Grozny 3 include:
# 2 The military did not permit moratoriums or ceasefires, which they said allowed the Chechens to regroup and resupply in the first battle for the city. This also eliminated federal force complaints that the politicians were keeping Russian forces from winning."
I wish we could get this little nugget through our brain housing groups.
And point it out to people that point to the "Russian lessons" and then say our policymakers can never do wrong.
Someone please tell me how killing Sadr would violate the "Russians lesson learned."
bfl
Did you read the link? Until you do, I have no further conversation with you.
Apparently you can't even read a link that is handed to you.
However, there is this rather depressing article from (who else) the NY Times. (I didn't format, sorry):
No easy task to keep rebels off the streets
Evidence often too weak to put insurgents away
By Gordon Lubold
Times staff writer
RAMADI, Iraq Last fall, military units arrested an Iraqi man suspected of contributing to the bloody insurgency here. They had to let him go in February.
Troops picked him up again in April and, again, the man was set free in June.
Now, leathernecks from Weapons Company, 2nd Battalion, 4th Marines, have to find the man a third time. And theyre frustrated.
Not only are they loathe to put a suspected insurgent back on the streets. But every time the Marines are sent out on these missions, they brave rocket-propelled grenades, improvised explosives and small-arms fire all for a guy who will probably be back out on the streets in a matter of weeks.
Its the grunt version of a catch-and-release program.
You feel like youre chasing your tail, said 1st Lt. Dan Crawford, 27, a platoon commander with Weapons Company. Platoons such as Crawfords have been conducting raids to haul in Iraqis and foreign fighters suspected of attacking American forces.
Theyre taken to a detention facility here, where theyre strip-searched and interrogated. But often theyre released when there isnt enough evidence to support holding them.
Weapons Company leathernecks battled about 40 men in downtown Ramadi in early July. They killed 21 fighters during the skirmish and detained about 20 more.
But their victory was muted about a week later when the unit learned that all of the men they captured had been released.
One platoon sergeant was so bitter about the matter that he would not comment. You dont want to talk to me about that, he said.
Crawford has his own frustrations. His platoon is the one that recently received the target folder showing that, once more, the man whos been freed twice already needs to be brought in for questioning.
Weve done two raids at his home to try to get him, but he hasnt been home, Crawford said during an interview in late July at Camp Hurricane Point in Ramadi. The wanted mans brother has already been captured and was taken to Abu Ghraib prison. Typically, it takes solid evidence to send a man to Abu Ghraib. Crawford suspects that if the brother of the man hes still after is at Abu Ghraib, the wanted man is probably a bona fide insurgent.
Tough burden of proof
But assembling the kind of evidence needed to get suspected insurgents to Abu Ghraib is hard.
Most of the evidence they collect is circumstantial and may not stand up to the strict legal standards being applied here. But to the Marines who have to go find the men, some of whom may be responsible for killing their own, those high standards spell frustration and anxiety.
One of our biggest strengths, which is one of our biggest weaknesses, is our integrity, said Capt. Robert Weiler, 31, from Woodbridge, Va. Weiler estimates that half of detainees are ultimately released, though battalion officials said the number was closer to one-third.
The reason the men are let go is simple, said Maj. Thomas McCann, a lawyer for 1st Marine Division. The bottom line is evidence, and is there enough to hold the person, McCann said.
The enemy may not follow Geneva Convention guidelines for prisoners, but U.S. forces do, he said. If youre going to deprive people of their freedom, you better have proof that they did something to forfeit that freedom, he said.
When men are detained after raids or firefights, Marines often make identifying marks on the backs of detainees shirts. Information about where they were found and what they were doing is logged to help lawyers and interrogators exploit the detainee for more information. The units also must fill out forms that provide evidence that the person being dropped off is guilty. A military lawyer reviews the case within 72 hours of detention and decides whether the detainee stays or goes.
Division-level officials said they understand the Marines frustrations. But nothing about this insurgency is black and white, McCann said.
And as frustrating as it can be for the grunts who apprehend these people, erring on the safe side sends the right message to the Iraqi people as they set up their own government and legal system, said Chief Warrant Officer 2 Rodney Gauthier, 40, division corrections officer.
If were not modeling the correct system for them, how is it going to look? he asked. Theyre looking to us as an example.
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