Posted on 07/22/2004 8:32:59 AM PDT by SJackson
Presbyterian Frontier Fellowship http://www.pff.net/
Presbyterians are extending the kingdom of Christ through missions to a great variety of peoples - Jews and Muslims alike.
Buh byee...
The PCUSA is certainly in the Calvinist tradition. Calvin didn't intend for reformed Christians to try to live in the sixteenth century forever.
The confessional basis of the PCUSA is solidly reformed.
Many orthodox Christian communions - Calvinists included - around the world affirm that the Spirit gifts and calls both women and men for all ministries of the Church.
As you know, I tried a stint in the ARP for a few years and gladly returned to the PCUSA. I find the PCUSA for all her errors, and like the rest of the visible church she is rife with them, to be the best expression of reformed faith and practice around.
Rockefeller's money was/is perhaps the most corrosive and corrupting influence in the modern U.S. church.
However, that influence is waning. The WCC, NCC, Union Seminary in NY and various other enterprises he funded are dying a slow death (but dying nonetheless).
FYI, I am more open to the charismatic gifts than most Calvinists, so I am able to think outside the box....I just don't believe in women being pastors.
The PCUSA certainly is in the Calvinist tradition. I just wish they lived up to the Book of Confessions.
I hope you guys staying have great success in turning the ship around. Nice to hear from you again.
They don't "just" target unaffilliated Jews, JFJ is happy to let anyone become a Jew and Christian all at the same time and hedge their bets. Besides, they tell them they'll get one of the secret decoder rings.
No one is ever "duped" to accept Christ, but it may require a person to look at the evidence.
"Looking at the evidence" means reading the Hebrew scriptures and asking the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to show you who the Messiah is. The other things you cite are ineffectual and, frankly, beside the point. Earnestly ask Him and He will tell you.
I'm a strong supporter of the State of Israel and I've posted many times on FR of my support for Israel, condemning anti-Semitism esp. as it's broken out in France, etc.
I think the Jewish organizations should cease trying to influence the actions of the PCUSA. There will always be Messianic Jewish organizations, such as Jews for Jesus. The evangelical churches (Assemblies of God in particular) support Jewish missionary work. I feel that this is a good thing. This is in accordance with Jesus' command to "go into the whole world and preach the gospel to all peoples."
Our Jewish brothers and sisters are free to walk past the missionaries that try to offer them tracts or witness to them. The missionary work will not cease just because they don't like it. The missionaries have a right to evangelize.
I understand that this is a controversial issue. However, I stand on what I have written here.
I resent the attempt to bully the PCUSA on this issue.
As for divesting of PCUSA assets in Israel, I'm totally against that.
Yehuda, I sense hostility on your part to this Messianic Jewish congregations, and therefore I would like to ask you why. What difference does it make to you personally how this particular congregation presents itself? I don't know anything about that congregations, but I've been exposed to "Jews for Jesus" and they are very vocal and upfront that they are both Jews and Christians. In fact, they seem better informed about the basis of the Christian faith and its Jewish roots, than many Christians. I respect them and their ardor for the faith.
So Jewish organizations should cease trying to influence the actions of PCUSA, but evangelical organizations should be left uncontested in their attempts to missionize Jews?
"There will always be Messianic Jewish organizations" because Christian groups continue to fund them.
The missionaries have a right to evangelize.
And Jewish groups have a right to try to influence the policies and decisions of evangelical organizations that fund Jewish missionary efforts. If you have free speech, so do we.
I resent the attempt to bully the PCUSA on this issue.
Think of the actions of these Jewish groups as a missionary effort.
Personally, I don’t much care about evangelizing, other than minors, as you note I can tell them to take a hike.
However they do recruit by misrepresenting the Jewish faith.
From the perspective of faith, “holding on to elements of their former (former you said?) background strikes me as silly, like nominal Jews who put up Christmas trees so their kids don’t feel out of place. Not particularly complimentary to either of our faiths.
As to their “former faith”, and that’s what it is, it’s not necessary to be Jewish to become a messianic Jew. Hindu, Muslim, Wiccan, members of other Christian denominations (JFJ is Baptist), apostate or not, all welcome. By definition that negates the concept of “messianic Jews”.
The contention that “messianic Jews” are still part of the Jewish community, a major selling point, is equally silly. The Jewish community gets to decide that, and they’re not accepted as Jews.
I appreciate your statement that they seem better informed about the basis of the Christian faith and its Jewish roots, than many Christians. Except that they are Christians, not Jews, you. I don't see the problem in acknowledging that.
Meant to include you in 55.
Thanks for the info. It's tough to keep track of the players without a scorecard.
On the contrary, it's perfectly logical. The Messianic Jew retains the comfort of his Jewish background and supplements it with his newfound Christian faith. For such a convert, it would be too wrenching an experience to stop calling himself Jewish. The Messianic Jewish congregations allow these people of faith to continue in both traditions. This is a good thing, in my opinion.
So I resent the actions of Jews who attempt to interfere in a private Christian matter. Why are they attempting to bully the PCUSA into denying funds to this Philadelphia congregation? It's not their concern.
Weak attempt at humor, friend. The actions of these Jewish groups are an interference in an internal PCUSA matter. Let them convert to Presbyterianism and then they'll have a voice in the governing of the Presbyterian Church (USA). If they're not donating funds to the PCUSA, then they can cease their attacks, IMO.
Sounds like the PCUSA hasn't reversed it's "Israel, lower your shields and
commit suicide" position yet.
Dennis Prager mentioned yesterday mentioned that he still couldn't get PCUSA reps to
come on his show.
For lurkers/posters, here's a link to Prager's column on the PCUSA-divestiture in Israel issue:
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/dennisprager/dp20040720.shtml
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