Separation of Church and State: The Big Lie

America's Godly Heritage (Video from Wallbuilders)

[Conspiracy Guy]

Sad but true. People will tend to accept anything they don't know anything about. Especially the koolaid left.

[GarySpFc]

I likewise have investigated Barton's quotes, and you are either taking them out of context or discounting the sources. It is an outright lie on your part that Barton has admitted many of his quotes are bogus. It is true that he has admitted after investigating the sources that a couple are not well documented, but not the majority as you imply.

You state: "Incredibly, Barton appears to have emerged undamaged even after admitting that many of his quotes are bogus, and he continues spreading incorrect information through the Religious Right's media empire. During his most recent Interview With Dobson May 2, Barton conceded that Thomas Jefferson's famous 1802 letter to the Danbury Baptists of Connecticut calls for a "wall of separation between church and state." But Barton went on to claim that later in the letter Jefferson says separation "means the government will not run the church, but we will still use Christian principles with government." In fact, Jefferson's letter says no such thing.

You are taking out of context what Barton stated. And the separation of church and state in Jefferson's letter skeptics imply is there is a complete lie. Let's see what Chief Justice Reconquest has to say on the subject.

"It is impossible to build sound constitutional doctrine upon a mistaken understanding of Constitutional history. … The establishment clause had been expressly freighted with Jefferson’s misleading metaphor for nearly forty years. … There is simply no historical foundation for the proposition that the framers intended to build a wall of separation [between church and state]. … The recent court decisions are in no way based on either the language or intent of the framers. …" William Hubbs Rehnquist in Wallace v. Jaffree (1984)

[MamaTexan]

The Founders wanted laws affecting the people to be ethical, fair, and easy to understand. Their strong Christian faith and determination to allow government as little control as possible over the people resulted in the 10 Commandments being used as the key foundation of our laws.

These covenants are the single, primary rule of law. They are a contract between man and the Creator who gave him free will, and no man-made power can prevent someone from fulfilling the obligations of that contract. These Commandments stipulate laws for ALL the people to live by- not to force a particular religious belief, but to affirm man’s position in the natural world by assuring compatibility in society.

The Commandments are prominently posted at the Supreme Court building so the highest court of the government remembered that the preservation rights took precedence over any aspirations of an artificial construction.

These commandments were placed on 2 separate tablets for a purpose.

Commandments 1 to 5 are God’s laws to man.
A violation of these is considered punishable only by God, not by man.
ONE: You shall have no other gods before Me
TWO: You shall not make for yourself a graven image
THREE: You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain
FOUR: Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy
FIVE: Honor your father and your mother

Commandments 6 to 10 are not ONLY God’s laws to man, they are also God’s laws between men: A violation of these is considered punishable by God AND by man
SIX: You shall not murder
SEVEN: You shall not commit adultery
EIGHT: You shall not steal
NINE: You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor
TEN: You shall not covet anything that is your neighbor's

These moral laws were already well known by Americans. When a person lied, cheated, stole, murdered, or failed to live up to a contractual obligation to someone else, that person committed a crime because they negatively and directly affected another human being.

This is what so many of the general population don't seem to understand. The Commandments ARE our laws, and words like law, crime, marriage, etc have ALREADY been defined in the Bible, but no one in the government will admit it, because of the lie of 'separation of church and state'.

[GarySpFc]

Separation of God and state?

America's founders did not intend for there to be a separation of God and state, as shown by the fact that all 50 states acknowledged God in their state constitutions:

Alabama 1901, Preamble. We the people of the State of Alabama ... invoking the favor and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish the following Constitution ...

Alaska 1956, Preamble. We, the people of Alaska, grateful to God and to those who founded our nation and pioneered this great land ...

Arizona 1911, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Arizona, grateful to Almighty God for our liberties, do ordain this Constitution ...

Arkansas 1874, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Arkansas, grateful to Almighty God for the privilege of choosing our own form of government ...

California 1879, Preamble. We, the People of the State of California, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom ...

Colorado 1876, Preamble. We, the people of Colorado, with profound reverence for the Supreme Ruler of Universe ...

Connecticut 1818, Preamble. The People of Connecticut, acknowledging with gratitude the good Providence of God in permitting them to enjoy ...

Delaware 1897, Preamble. Through Divine Goodness all men have, by nature, the rights of worshipping and serving their Creator according to the dictates of their consciences ...

Florida 1885, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Florida, grateful to Almighty God for our constitutional liberty ... establish this Constitution ...

Georgia 1777, Preamble. We, the people of Georgia, relying upon protection and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish this Constitution ...

Hawaii 1959, Preamble. We, the people of Hawaii, Grateful for Divine Guidance ... establish this Constitution ...

Idaho 1889, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Idaho, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings ...

Illinois 1870, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Illinois, grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy and looking to Him for a blessing on our endeavors ...

Indiana 1851, Preamble. We, the People of the State of Indiana, grateful to Almighty God for the free exercise of the right to chose our form of government ...

Iowa 1857, Preamble. We, the People of the State of Iowa, grateful to the Supreme Being for the blessings hitherto enjoyed, and feeling our dependence on Him for a continuation of these blessings ... establish this Constitution ...

Kansas 1859, Preamble. We, the people of Kansas, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious privileges ... establish this Constitution ...

Kentucky 1891, Preamble. We, the people of the Commonwealth of Kentucky, grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties ...

Louisiana 1921, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Louisiana, grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties we enjoy ...

Maine 1820, Preamble. We the People of Maine ... acknowledging with grateful hearts the goodness of the Sovereign Ruler of the Universe in affording us an opportunity ... and imploring His aid and direction ...

Maryland 1776, Preamble. We, the people of the state of Maryland, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious liberty ...

Massachusetts 1780, Preamble. We...the people of Massachusetts, acknowledging with grateful hearts, the goodness of the Great Legislator of the Universe... in the course of His Providence, an opportunity ... and devoutly imploring His direction ...

Michigan 1908, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Michigan, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of freedom ... establish this Constitution ...

Minnesota, 1857, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Minnesota, grateful to God for our civil and religious liberty, and desiring to perpetuate its blessings ...

Mississippi 1890, Preamble. We, the people of Mississippi in convention assembled, grateful to Almighty God, and invoking His blessing on our work ...

Missouri 1945, Preamble. We, the people of Missouri, with profound reverence for the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, and grateful for His goodness ... establish this Constitution ...

Montana 1889, Preamble. We, the people of Montana, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of liberty ... establish this Constitution ...

Nebraska 1875, Preamble. We, the people, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom ... establish this Constitution ...

Nevada 1864, Preamble. We the people of the State of Nevada, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom ... establish this Constitution ...

New Hampshire 1792, Part I. Art. I. Sec. V. Every individual has a natural and unalienable right to worship God according to the dictates of his own conscience ...

New Jersey 1844, Preamble. We, the people of the State of New Jersey, grateful to Almighty God for civil and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing on our endeavors..

New Mexico 1911, Preamble. We, the People of New Mexico, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of liberty ...

New York 1846, Preamble. We, the people of the State of New York, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, in order to secure its blessings ...

North Carolina 1868, Preamble. We the people of the State of North Carolina, grateful to Almighty God, the Sovereign Ruler of Nations, for ... our civil, political, and religious liberties, and acknowledging our dependence upon Him for the continuance of those ...

North Dakota 1889, Preamble. We, the people of North Dakota, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, do ordain...

Ohio 1852, Preamble. We the people of the state of Ohio, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings and to promote our common ...

Oklahoma 1907, Preamble. Invoking the guidance of Almighty God, in order to secure and perpetuate the blessings of liberty ... establish this ...

Oregon 1857, Bill of Rights, Article I. Section 2. All men shall be secure in the Natural right, to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their consciences ...

Pennsylvania 1776, Preamble. We, the people of Pennsylvania, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, and humbly invoking His guidance ...

Rhode Island 1842, Preamble. We the People of the State of Rhode Island ... grateful to Almighty God for the civil and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing ...

South Carolina, 1778, Preamble. We, the people of the State of South Carolina ... grateful to God for our liberties, do ordain and establish this Constitution ...

South Dakota 1889, Preamble. We, the people of South Dakota, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious liberties ... establish this Constitution ...

Tennessee 1796, Art. XI.III. That all men have a natural and indefeasible right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their conscience ...

Texas 1845, Preamble. We the People of the Republic of Texas, acknowledging, with gratitude, the grace and beneficence of God ...

Utah 1896, Preamble. Grateful to Almighty God for life and liberty, we ... establish this Constitution ...

Vermont 1777, Preamble. Whereas all government ought to ... enable the individuals who compose it to enjoy their natural rights, and other blessings which the Author of Existence has bestowed on man ...

Virginia 1776, Bill of Rights, XVI ... Religion, or the Duty which we owe our Creator ... can be directed only by Reason ... and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian Forbearance, Love and Charity towards each other ...

Washington 1889, Preamble. We the People of the State of Washington, grateful to the Supreme Ruler of the Universe for our liberties, do ordain this Constitution ...

West Virginia 1872, Preamble. Since through Divine Providence we enjoy the blessings of civil, political and religious liberty, we, the people of West Virginia ... reaffirm our faith in and constant reliance upon God ...

Wisconsin 1848, Preamble. We, the people of Wisconsin, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, domestic tranquility ...

Wyoming 1890, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Wyoming, grateful to God for our civil, political, and religious liberties ... establish this Constitution ...

After reviewing acknowledgments of God from all 50 state constitutions, one is faced with the prospect that maybe, just maybe, the ACLU and the out-of-control federal courts are wrong.

[The Scourge of Yazid]

Very cool screen name!

But quite as cool as this one:

SAMUEL PEPYS.

Wait, there isn't a "Samuel Pepys" registered to FreeRepublic?(!)

Oh, then I guess yours is cooler.

Sorry for the mistake.

Carry on then!

[Americanwolf]

Do'h! The first ten lines of this post look like they were hit by carpet bombing. Did the VK's already do a bombing run or did someone let an admin monitor loose?

[Conspiracy Guy]

A poster named "someidiot" which was a good discription posted a bunch of liberal revisionist spew and he was promptly sacked. Sorry you missed it.

[PhilipFreneau]

>> Separation of Church and State is the REASON this country is so religious.

LOL. You are some idiot!

Separation of Church and State is a new-fangled invention of the atheistic left. Only a fool would believe it.

[tpaine]

Conspiracy Guy wrote:
--- quoting the Separation of Church and State --
A quick counter of "Where is that stated?" usually shuts them up.


______________________________________


It's not 'stated', as you say.
But rational men agree that the establishment clause doesn't need to enumerate such a separation, as long as fed, state, and local officials all obey their oaths to support our Constitutions basic principles.

The 1st's establishment & exercise clause's, as adopted:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; -- "

--- No law "respecting an establishment of religion", means no law respecting ANY of the tenets/dogmas of ANY particular religion.

The whole idea of the restriction on Congress was to 'grandfather in' the existing State supported churches.

The language used was a brilliant political compromise to satisfy the fundamentalists of the day, --- while getting across the point that the 'establishments' of any particular religion were not to be respected by elected officials sworn to uphold our individual liberties. -- A simple principle.

[Conspiracy Guy]

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; -- "

Do you believe this supports the remove God from the public square movement of today? If so I am not one of the rational men you mentioned.

[tpaine]

Conspiracy Guy wrote:


Do you believe this supports the remove God from the public square movement of today? If so I am not one of the rational men you mentioned.

______________________________________


I believe that it is not rational to assert that any public official outright "supports the removal of God from the public square".

If any has [big if] they should be impeached, and tried for malfeasance, imo.


Can you name names of those you accuse?

[Conspiracy Guy]

Can you name names of those you accuse?

The 9th Circuit Court comes to mind.

[GarySpFc]

"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports . . . And let us indulge with caution the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion . . . Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail to the exclusion of religious principle." From President George Washington's Farewell Address

"The general principles, on which the Fathers achieved independence, were . . . the general principles of Christianity." John Adams, in a letter to Thomas Jefferson, June 28, 1813, The Adams-Jefferson Letters, ed. Lester J. Cappon (Chapel Hill, NC: University of North Carolina Press, 1959), vol 2, pp. 339-40.

"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers. And it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest, of a Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." First Chief Justice of Supreme Court John Jay to Jedidiah Morse February 28, 1797

"Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever." President Thomas Jefferson

"The American population is entirely Christian, and with us Christianity and Religion are identified. It would be strange indeed, if with such a people, our institutions did not presuppose Christianity, and did not often refer to it, and exhibit relations with it." John Marshall, in a letter to Jasper Adams, May 9, 1833, JSAC, p. 139. Marshall was Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court from 1801-1835.

"The Court in addition to the proper use of its judicial functions has improperly set itself up as a third house of the Congress - a super-legislature, as one of the justices has called it - reading into the Constitution words and implications which are not there, and which were never intended to be there." Franklin D. Roosevelt, March 9, 1937. For the full text of the "Fireside Chat on Reorganization of the Judiciary, March 9, 1937 "

[tpaine]

It would be easier to jail them for their views on our RKBA's.

You're being irrational to think you could impeach them for religious apostasy.

[GeorgiaYankee]

Church services were held in the House of Representatives chamber until 1868, and were attended by Jefferson and Madison. Services were also held in the Treasury and Supreme Court buildings.

The source of this info? The Library of Congress website.

These guys wrote the 1st Amendment, I think their practice speaks volumes about their intent.

Check out the link, it includes pictures and handwritten documents, like Jefferson's Danbury letter.


http://lcweb.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel06-2.html

THE STATE BECOMES THE CHURCH:
JEFFERSON AND MADISON
It is no exaggeration to say that on Sundays in Washington during the administrations of Thomas Jefferson (1801-1809) and of James Madison (1809-1817) the state became the church. Within a year of his inauguration, Jefferson began attending church services in the House of Representatives. Madison followed Jefferson's example, although unlike Jefferson, who rode on horseback to church in the Capitol, Madison came in a coach and four.

Worship services in the House--a practice that continued until after the Civil War--were acceptable to Jefferson because they were nondiscriminatory and voluntary. Preachers of every Protestant denomination appeared. (Catholic priests began officiating in 1826.)

As early as January 1806 a female evangelist, Dorothy Ripley, delivered a camp meeting-style exhortation in the House to Jefferson, Vice President Aaron Burr, and a "crowded audience." Throughout his administration Jefferson permitted church services in executive branch buildings. The Gospel was also preached in the Supreme Court chambers.

Jefferson's actions may seem surprising because his attitude toward the relation between religion and government is usually thought to have been embodied in his recommendation that there exist "a wall of separation between church and state." In that statement, Jefferson was apparently declaring his opposition, as Madison had done in introducing the Bill of Rights, to a "national" religion.

In attending church services on public property, Jefferson and Madison consciously and deliberately were offering symbolic support to religion as a prop for republican government.

[Conspiracy Guy]

Did I suggest impeachment? I must be typing with my eyes closed.

[Modernman]

Separation of Church and State is a new-fangled invention of the atheistic left. Only a fool would believe it.

Over the last century, we've seen that when government gets involved in social issues such as the family, divorce, regulation of vices, poverty, raising of children and many other areas, the end result is usually disastrous.

Generally speaking, government is pretty good at doing things that don't involve human nature, such as killing our enemies or exploring space. However, when asked to deal with things that involve the human heart, government causes more trouble than it solves.

Knowing all this, I figure the average religious American would run screaming from any suggestion that there be any involvement of government in or with religion.

[tpaine]

Conspiracy Guy wrote:

Did I suggest impeachment? I must be typing with my eyes closed.

______________________________________

No, -- you didn't, -- I did.

Try typing with your mind open.

[k2blader]

There is no such thing as the "separation of church and state", the evidence being the Establishment Clause: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof".

The false "separation of church and state" concept has "evolved" (for lack of a better word) from a grossly liberal distortion of the above clause and entrenched through an equally liberal tactic: Repeat a lie long enough and people will end up believing it.