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To: appalachian_dweller
Believe me, I most certainly sympathize with you. At the same time, my sense is that we do license people to fly aircraft and such. Cars can certainly be just as dangerous when you consider the sheer volume of vehicle traffic. Are we to have unlicensed people flying aircraft? How about operating eighteen-wheelers with HAZMATs? Thus far, we seem to have drawn the line at operating a car or motorcycle. If you must be licensed (given permission) to do something, then you're talking about a privilege which is subject to terms and conditions. One of the conditions laid out to us is that we agree to submit to certain types of searches while operating a motor vehicle.

Now, we can talk all day long about whether the state even has the right to force people to get a license to drive a car, but once you agree to that, you've agreed to the terms laid out. I don't like it any more than you do, and the libertarian side of me cringes whenever I see something like this, but I honestly can't say I know a better way to do things, and I've always found it hard to render criticism of something I, myself, cannot improve upon.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts.
36 posted on 07/19/2004 2:22:07 PM PDT by NJ_gent (Conservatism begins at home. Security begins at the border. Please, someone, secure our borders.)
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To: NJ_gent
The problem is that this is a search without probable cause. Yes driving without a license is a crime, or at least a violation, but they have no reason to think any particular driver is committing that violation. If they stop them for a nonfunctional license plate illumination light, or some such, and discover they don't have a license, then they can ticket them for it. A fishing expedition like this is no different than the general warrants the British used to issue in the colonies. We fought a war to get rid of that, and now it's back, except that they don't even bother with the paperwork of the general warrant.
44 posted on 07/19/2004 2:37:09 PM PDT by El Gato (Federal Judges can twist the Constitution into anything.. Or so they think.)
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To: NJ_gent

I've been rolling that around in my mind since I posted. In Virginia, when you accept a drivers license you agree to submit to sobriety tests. You refuse the test(s), your license is revoked no questions asked.

So when you accept a drivers license, you do agree to the terms of having the license. I do agree that driving is a privilege and not a right, but the 4th Amendment states "secure in their persons… against unreasonable searches and seizures". So the question becomes, are random checkpoints ‘unreasonable’?

Taken on it’s own they are unreasonable because they are random. Balanced against public safety, maybe the checkpoints are not so unreasonable after all; however, random checks were part of the reason the Founding Fathers wrote the 4th Amendment.

Take into consideration the 'probable cause' and 'in plain sight' rulings and dishonest police (not all cops are crooks, but it only takes a couple). An officer states “I smell marijuana” and now he has illegal full access to your vehicle. The abuse of the checkpoints are what’s worrying folks (including myself).

Should we even try to balance public safety and the 4th amendment? Freedom comes with responsibility. People are free to get a car and a drivers license, but they are responsible to maintain the vehicle in proper working order, operate the vehicle in a safe manner, and adhere to all applicable laws. If they do not meet these requirements, there are laws covering such behavior. How to we enforce these laws without violating the 4th Amendment?

If people would meet their responsibilities, these checkpoints would not be necessary. I know that’s too much like a perfect world.

Virginia does these random checks all the time for one reason or another and it brings in a lot of cash. Ask a cop and he/she will tell you it’s for the public safety (DUI) or to be fair (checking for valid tags/stickers/license/etc) to catch the ‘cheaters’. I still think they do it for the revenue.

IMO, random checkpoints are unreasonable and a violation. Does the consideration of public safety nudge them into the reasonable zone? I don’t think so, but that’s my take on it. I’ve always put the individual first. Problem is we have too many individuals who are not accepting the responsibility that goes along with their freedom.


91 posted on 07/19/2004 4:12:12 PM PDT by appalachian_dweller (The RIGHT of THE PEOPLE to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED.)
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