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Newton Vs. The Clockwork Universe
Wolfhart Pannenberg "Toward a Theoelogy of Nature" | July 19, 2004 | Jean F. Drew

Posted on 07/19/2004 11:35:57 AM PDT by betty boop

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Just consider this a "thought experiment" with important historical precedents....
1 posted on 07/19/2004 11:36:01 AM PDT by betty boop
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To: Alamo-Girl; marron; unspun; Phaedrus; Heartlander; xzins; P-Marlowe; Thermopylae; Maceman; ...

A little food for thought....


2 posted on 07/19/2004 11:38:39 AM PDT by betty boop
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To: betty boop

Interesting. Thanks for the ping.


3 posted on 07/19/2004 11:43:48 AM PDT by PatrickHenry (#26,303, never suspended, over 186 threads posted.)
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To: betty boop
It has been speculated that, if an observer could stand outside of “normal” four-dimensional space-time and take a view from a fifth, “time-like” dimension, the singularity of the “big bang” would appear as a “shock wave” propagating in 4D space-time. If this were true, the shock wave would require a medium of propagation.

Not only does the conclusion not follow, the search for a propagation medium has turned up negative in all experiments. The Michelson-Morley being one of the first.

4 posted on 07/19/2004 11:46:06 AM PDT by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch is der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: betty boop
A little food for thought....

Um, I don't know Jean dear. This is a very short post. I don't want to say I'm disappointed, but... I'll ask Mr. Science if he thinks the article is at an appropriate level for my right-brained mind. (An old college buddy gave me a copy of A Clockwork Orange, but I still haven't read it. Is it like that? ;-)

5 posted on 07/19/2004 11:55:05 AM PDT by unspun (RU working your precinct & assocs. for conservatives? | Not "Unspun with AnnaZ" but I appreciate)
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To: betty boop
BTW, this is.. intriguing... (fighting the urge to... read...). Does it have to do with postmodernism? - a shot in the dark.
6 posted on 07/19/2004 12:00:25 PM PDT by unspun (RU working your precinct & assocs. for conservatives? | Not "Unspun with AnnaZ" but I appreciate)
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To: betty boop
Oh, it's an honest, wholesome historical analysis of your own! o-k, after all these months you've won. My resistance is defeated.
7 posted on 07/19/2004 12:05:08 PM PDT by unspun (RU working your precinct & assocs. for conservatives? | Not "Unspun with AnnaZ" but I appreciate)
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To: Doctor Stochastic

Would it make any difference to you if I were to say that the medium of propagation need not be physical, "material"?


8 posted on 07/19/2004 12:25:36 PM PDT by betty boop
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To: unspun
Oh, it's an honest, wholesome historical analysis of your own!

LOL, unspun! Just a meditation on Newton's theology, and trying to connect the dots between it and quantum field theory. Of course, it's quite speculative! :^)

I have a working scientist friend who has developed quite an interesting model of consciousness, which he sees as facilitated by energy exchanges with the appropriate fields .... That's pretty speculative, too; but I think he makes a good case. Thanks for writing, Brother A!

9 posted on 07/19/2004 12:31:11 PM PDT by betty boop
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To: betty boop
BB:
Moreover, Newton believed that his laws of motion implied the generation of conditions of increasing disorder in the world, such that God would have to intervene periodically to rectify it in order to save it and keep it going:
Isaac Newton:
Every body continues in its state of rest, or of uniform motion in a right line, unless it is compelled to change that state by forces impressed upon it.
-- Principia Mathematica (1687) Laws of Motion I
One other quote from Newton (his public position, regardless of his private views):
I have not been able to discover the cause of those properties of gravity from phenomena, and I frame no hypotheses; for whatever is not deduced from the phenomena is to be called a hypothesis, and hypotheses, whether metaphysical or physical, whether of occult qualities or mechanical, have no place in experimental philosophy.
-- Letter to Robert Hooke (February 5, 1675)

10 posted on 07/19/2004 12:54:29 PM PDT by PatrickHenry (#26,303, never suspended, over 186 threads posted.)
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To: PatrickHenry
I forgot to give a link for my quotes: HERE.
11 posted on 07/19/2004 12:56:12 PM PDT by PatrickHenry (#26,303, never suspended, over 186 threads posted.)
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To: PatrickHenry
One other quote from Newton (his public position, regardless of his private views)...

Agreed, PH -- Newton's "official position." Yet it is also a fact that he wrote the Scolium Generale to clarify theological points in his major mathematical work, and put God into his Opticks all the same.

Go figure! :^)

12 posted on 07/19/2004 1:01:01 PM PDT by betty boop
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To: betty boop
If it's not material (includes energy, of course), how do you propose detecting such medium. If not detectable, why suggest existence?
13 posted on 07/19/2004 2:24:34 PM PDT by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch is der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: Doctor Stochastic

IMO, all metaphysical statements ought to be colored purple in order to be in harmony with their immanence.


14 posted on 07/19/2004 2:31:11 PM PDT by headsonpikes (Spirit of '76 bttt!)
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To: betty boop
argued that a perfect Creator cannot have failed to create a perfect creation.

I would say that the notion of perfect does as much harm as good to our understanding. "Perfect" as a static state is merely a mental construct. It doesn't exist. Any state of "perfect" only sets the stage for the next stage of "perfect", and so it goes, a moving target receding at the speed of... light? At the speed of thought. Perfect can only be dynamic, it is a continuous process.

Such a mental construct can't have any effect on whether God is or isn't continuously present in his creation. But a dynamic "perfect" is consistent with a God who is present in the here and now. "Perfect" as a moving target doesn't bother me, in my understanding at least, that is what creation looks like, a moving, living, changing, growing thing.

There is a beautiful order to creation, implying to me a well designed formula at the heart of it all, but there is also a kind of beautiful messiness about it, suggesting a creation that responds to damage and overcomes it. Which is to say, a creation that responds to the expected unexpected.

sensorium Dei could well refer to an infinite, universal creative field, “originally empty” of all content, designed to be the matrix and carrier of all possibilities for our universe...

The blank canvas where God will paint his masterpiece, with his perfect formulas, and his little human agents of messiness who fit themselves into any available space, respond to local anomalies and bridge them with their bodies and their lives. With God's help.

15 posted on 07/19/2004 2:31:13 PM PDT by marron
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To: headsonpikes
Like this?
16 posted on 07/19/2004 2:34:53 PM PDT by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch is der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: Doctor Stochastic
Like this?

Sorry, that's a little on the red side!

Besides, nothing earthly can quite capture the exact shade of perfervid purple necessary for the harmonic convergance of form and substance that our hearts so desire.

;^)

17 posted on 07/19/2004 2:48:15 PM PDT by headsonpikes (Spirit of '76 bttt!)
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To: headsonpikes

I guess from now on, I suppose, I'll have to write in purple prose. If purple doesn't suit your mood, then I won't be peer reviewed.


18 posted on 07/19/2004 2:54:26 PM PDT by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch is der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: Doctor Stochastic

Is 'peer review' anything like urinalysis?

That would be a little harsh!


19 posted on 07/19/2004 3:01:13 PM PDT by headsonpikes (Spirit of '76 bttt!)
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To: headsonpikes

Wow! I'm leaving out whole syllables now!

Note to self: Cut back Coke and coffee consumption.


20 posted on 07/19/2004 3:02:47 PM PDT by headsonpikes (Spirit of '76 bttt!)
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