Posted on 07/16/2004 8:59:00 AM PDT by neverdem
The first in a series of articles on the importance of the upcoming general election
Does the Second Amendment guarantee a right to states rather than an individual right to choose to own firearms? One clue to the answer is looking at who supports each position. The few law-review articles supporting the states'-right view all come from advocates, most of them employed by or associated with anti-gun groups.
The Verdict of Scholarship Yet, intellectual honesty compels many far more important scholars to accept the standard model of the Amendment as an individual's right despite personal anti-gun feelings. Famed constitutional lawyer and Harvard law professor Alan Dershowitz, who defended O.J. Simpson and Claus von Bulow, is a former ACLU national board member who admits he "hates" guns and wants the Second Amendment repealed. Yet, says Dershowitz: "Foolish liberals who are trying to read the Second Amendment out of the Constitution by claiming it's not an individual right or that it's too much of a safety hazard don't see the danger in the big picture. They're courting disaster by encouraging others to use the same means to eliminate portions of the Constitution they don't like."
Another former ACLU national board member, Duke Law School's William Van Alstyne, who is among the premier constitutional scholars of modern times, contemptuously dismisses the states'-right view. "If anyone entertained this notion in the period during which the Constitution and Bill of Rights were debated and ratified, it remains one of the most closely guarded secrets of the 18th century for no known writing surviving from the period between 1787 and 1791 states such a thesis." He emphasizes that to take civil liberties seriously requires respecting the Second Amendment no less than freedom of speech and religion and the other rights in the First Amendment. [Van Alstyne, "The Second Amendment and the Personal Right to Arms," 43 Duke Law Journal 1236 (1994).]
Another major figure in modern constitutional law is Harvard law professor Lawrence Tribe who is anti-gun and a liberal. Earlier versions of his famous text endorsed the states'-right view, but, having examined the historical evidence for himself, he now reluctantly admits the Amendment guarantees "a right (admittedly of uncertain scope) on the part of individuals to possess and use firearms in the defense of themselves and their homes." [Tribe, American Constitutional Law, Vol. 1, pp. 901-902 (2000)].
RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE Anti-gun writers cite my article (83 Michigan Law Review, pp. 204-273) as the definitive standard-model treatment. Yet, remarkably, these anti-gun writers give only that one initial mention. If they have answers to the 50 pages of evidence I offer for the standard model, they neglect to offer them. So I shall limit myself to just two examples of my unrefuted evidence.
Written by James Madison, the Bill of Rights was enacted as a single document. Whenever it says "right of the people," it does so to describe individual rights. To ignore this point you must think that in the First Amendment Madison used "right of the people" to describe an individual right. But then, 16 words later, he used it in the Second Amendment meaning a state's right. But then, 46 words later, the Fourth Amendment says "right of the people" meaning an individual right again. And then "right of the people" was used in the Ninth Amendment to mean--guess what--a right of the people.
In fact, throughout the Bill of Rights and the Constitution the word "right" is always used to refer to something individuals have and never used to refer to powers possessed by government. Such powers are always called "power" or "authority."
THE PURPOSE OF THE MILITIA Anti-gun advocates imply from the Amendment's reference to a "well-regulated militia" that government can regulate gun ownership. But that is totally outside the 18th century usage of "well regulated," which means "well trained" and "operating properly." Likewise, anti-gun advocates think the mention of militia show the right to arms applies only to states arming their militias. But in the 18th century "militia" did not mean "army" or "soldiers." The militia was a system of laws under which every man and every household was to have guns (unorganized militia), while most men of military age were required to appear with their guns when called out for drill or war (organized militia). The arms of the militia were the personally owned arms of its members.
It is somewhat misleading, however, to see the Second Amendment as a right to have arms for collective defense against tyranny or foreign enemies. The Amendment's central theme was what our Founding Fathers saw as the basic human right to possess arms for individual self-defense. But the Founders did not misconstrue that, as we so often do, as just a right to defense against nonpolitical criminals. The Founders believed individuals needed to be armed for political self-defense (e.g., Jews resisting the Gestapo) and that, in the ultimate extreme, people must join together to overthrow tyranny. (Note that the literal meaning of the term "revolution" was an uprising seeking to bring government back to its original free form, not to produce some new form.) [Kates, "The Second Amendment and the Ideology of Self-Protection," 9 Constitutional Commentary 87 (1992).]
WHAT LAWS DOES THE AMENDMENT PRECLUDE? The NRA's experts like Prof. Steve Halbrook believe the Amendment does more than I feel it does. And another expert, Prof. Nelson Lund, thinks neither Halbrook nor I interpret the Amendment broadly enough. We all agree, however, that the Amendment guarantees every responsible law-abiding adult freedom of choice regarding guns.
So assault-weapon bans are unconstitutional. "Assault weapons" are just semiautomatic rifles differing only in that they are down-powered from those of the WWII era. Banning them infringes on the freedom of law-abiding, responsible adults to choose which firearms they wish to have. Magazine limitations are invalid for the same reason.
So-called Saturday Night Special bans are valid only insofar as a particular model of firearm is provably unreliable or dangerous to use in the manner it is reasonably foreseeable to be used. The reasons for most SNS bans--that the guns are small, light and/or inexpensive--are invalid under the Second Amendment. Nor can states push gun prices to astronomical levels by requiring that guns incorporate dubious or unnecessary safety features.
LIMITS ON THE AMENDMENT The Amendment covers only small arms. Neither RPGs, cannons, grenades nor the other super-destructive devices of modern war are covered.
Guns may be banned to juveniles, convicted felons, aliens and the insane, all of whom have been excluded from the right to arms in free societies dating back to ancient Greece. (Juveniles have the right to use firearms under parental supervision.)
Though Professors Lund and Halbrook disagree, I think gun registration and license requirements to own are valid. What is invalid is licensing as traditionally practiced in New York. For licensing to be valid, licenses must be granted to all law-abiding, responsible applicants and within some very short period like 72 hours. If New York cannot manage to accomplish this then it cannot constitutionally require a license to own a firearm.
The right to bear arms includes a right to carry them but not concealed. On the other hand, if a license is required for concealed carry, equal standards must be applied. If retired cops routinely get licenses, so must everyone else who may be in danger from their connection with the justice system. And if the wealthy and influential routinely get licenses, so must the entire responsible, law-abiding adult populace.
VINDICATING THE RIGHT TODAY The Supreme Court has briefly referred to the Amendment in almost 40 different opinions, all showing that it guarantees an individual right to arms. But the court has never provided a full and lengthy exposition of the Amendment. In fact, several lengthy and considered opinions would be required to illuminate the Amendment's various aspects.
To any judge willing to follow the law, it must be clear that the Amendment guarantees the freedom of all responsible, law-abiding adults to choose to possess firearms for personal and family defense. We must depend on the president to appoint such judges and the Senate to confirm them.
Several vacancies on the U.S. Supreme court are likely during the next presidential term. Many appointments are also expected on lower federal and appellate courts. The president and members of the senate who are elected in November will play a major role in the rights of gun owners for many years.
We "get" it. We've "gotten" it since the mid-1700's. It is our government, and their enablers, that don't "get" it.
Title 10, Sec. 311 is the modern-day descendant of the 1792 Militia Act, which discussed the "militia" as almost all of us understand it to be (i.e. all able-bodied males, or at least those of us between 17 and 45). There is, to my knowledge, no such thing as the "federal militia."
I hope you are not asking me to explain the "common sense" behind BAFT regulation! I am not up to that. I am not even sure God could figure it out.
Click here for definition of Destructive Device
As you can see from the definition, for some reason shotguns don't count. Go figure.
Refreshing to see a ghost from the past. There be too few. Heh.
That's not the way I read it:
Sec. 6.
"No law shall abridge the right of the citizen to keep and bear arms for security and defense, for lawful hunting and recreational use and for other lawful purposes, but nothing herein shall be held to permit the carrying of concealed weapons."
There are many weapons that are not suitable for the purposes stated in your state constitution. Just be thankful you don't live in Illinois.
The federal laws you mentioned, and others, were written under the Commerce Clause to control the international and interstate shipment of certain weapons. The individual states were having problems enforcing their own laws with these weapons flooding in. They are constitutional and, as such, apply to the states.
Not one of these statutes were challenged as violating the second amendment (The 1994 AWB was challenged by Navegar and Penn Arms, but as a constitutional violation of the Commerce Clause, not the second amendment).
So, do these federal statutes violate the second amendment? Who knows?
"the people are nuts to allow even the state to dictate the terms of engagement where life and liberties are at stake"
I disagree. After all, this is exactly what the Founding Fathers had in mind. Your state decides. If your state wants concealed carry, fine. If another state doesn't, that's fine too. Your state wants "assault-style" weapons, fine. California doesn't? Screw 'em.
If the RKBA is an absolute burning issue with you, the FF figured there would be a state right up your alley. Move to it.
Now, here's what's going to be interesting -- and you heard it from robertpaulsen first. Watch what happens when the 1994 federal AWB expires, and it will expire. Watch how many states rush to pass their own AWB to fill the gap. You say it's the big bad federal government banning guns via the AWB? You ain't seen nothing yet.
Each state has its own definition of a militia.
To make sure that the chuckleheads in the state courts knew that "This MEANS YOU." Seriously, discussions of the 14th Amendment are important, and require quite a bit more bandwidth than I will be able to supply here. Believe me when I say that I sure could find a way to make the BOR apply to the states without the 14th Amendment (Supremacy Clause and various other parts of the Constitution). After consideration, I just don't believe that to be the intent of the founders. Subsequent to the 14th Amendment, no doubt in my mind whatsoever. I only wish that judges would act that way. They do not, and we now have a mess called "partial incorporation" on our hands. I do note the difference between a) the plain language of the document b) the intent of the founders (or in the case of amendments the Senate) and c) how judges actually rule in the case law.
Well, there you go.
And no mattter where you go .... there you are.
I looked up the People's Republic of Kalifornia's definitions of Destructive Device out of curiosity.
More restrictive California definition of destructive device
While this makes no sense, it is the law.
Just when I finally thought we were getting through to you, you fall of the wagon.
And the Press today trumpets "Bush LIED". Freedom of the Press bubba.
Bumpkin
Securing freedom isn't about defending yourself against muggers, or your home against burglars, it is about defending your nation against invaders from without and tyrants from within.
Far be it for a heavy left shill like Tribe to take a public stand on the clear meaning and ineluctable logical symmetry of the Second Amendment. When you consider that he refused ever to consider the primary purpose of the Amendment, the security of a FREE state, he gets a failing mark in his understanding of the English language as well as Constitutional History. I am tired of seeing his weak and intentionally incomplete conclusions trotted out as a correct analysis of the issue by an intellectually honest liberal. There is no such thing. They are all quislings and liars. BTW, if Tribe believed in freedom under the Constitution he would not have been down in Florida trying to help the Goron hijack the election. And given the primary purpose of the Amendment, the word "arms" means what it says, no more, no less.
The next clause goes on to clarify:
"No municipality or county shall regulate, in any way, an incident of the right to keep and bear arms."
Concerning concealed carry, it has always been my contention that the "but nothing herein shall be held to permit the carrying of concealed weapons" clause was another of stating the obvious, that the state does not have the power to permit -- or not permit -- the carrying of concealed weapons, as that would be assuming powers it did not have. It would be passing a law that would abridge the right of a Citizen to keep and bear arms, concealed or otherwise. An abridgement, which it knew it couldn't do. If the state can grant Citizens the right to carry concealed, it can also take away the right to carry concealed. So it excused itself from having to make the decision by adding that clause.
The final clause concerning municipalities or counties also prevents those political entities from restricting carry, concealed or otherwise. That's the only way I can make sense out of the entire Article II, Section 6.
If there is any obfuscation or confusion with the Article, it must lie at the feet of the writers who may have had a rascist bent and wanted the Article to be subject to interpretation either way, according to what 'incident' presented itself at any given time.
"There are many weapons that are not suitable for the purposes stated in your state constitution. Just be thankful you don't live in Illinois.
I lived in Illinois many years and never had a problem. The laws are written for the lawless. I was not a lawless person, nor am I today.
Who is to judge what kind of weapons are suitable for my purpose? Me and me alone. For self-defense, I will allow myself the necessity to use a weapon superior to any that might be used against me. After all, that's what self-defense is all about. It's not about battling for my life on an equal playing field. It's about surviving in the face of peril and the odds are going to be in my favor.
Do you see the logic and necessity for that?
"So, do these federal statutes violate the second amendment? Who knows?"
So what's your opinion? Is a rose still a rose if called by any other name?
""the people are nuts to allow even the state to dictate the terms of engagement where life and liberties are at stake""
"I disagree. After all, this is exactly what the Founding Fathers had in mind."
Doubt it very much. Otherwise we would have not objected to the redcoats trying to confiscate our powder. Why would they turn right around after winning the right to keep their powder and put it back under control of another government? Doesn't make sense. The Founders, more than anyone, knew governments of any kind had a built-in tendency to lean towards tyranny in time. That's another reason they made mention of it and took precautions to reserve for the people the right to change government.
"Watch how many states rush to pass their own AWB to fill the gap. You say it's the big bad federal government banning guns via the AWB? You ain't seen nothing yet."
Not looking forward to it.
Thanks for the look at LaLaLand!
Click here for federal destructive device definition
This has the punctuation right, so that you can see that a poison gas bomb is a destructive device, even if it has only 3 ounces of propellant.
Again, please don't ask me to try to make sense of these federal laws.
I know what I am talking about.
I have oral history handed down to me from my forefathers generations ago.
I present my case by family history and historical precedent for the RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS.
(7 of my family fought on Breed's Hill (Bunker Hill)
My family has had weapons and firearms since 1620, including muskets, blunderbusses, rifled muskets, rifles, civil war rifles, rifles brought home from WWI, WWII, KOREA and Vietnam, including Enfields, British sniper rifles, M-1 carbines, German lugers, and AK47's right off the plane from San Francisco from Saigon in 1975. My family has fought in the New England Indian Wars, Queen Ann's War, Fort St. Frederic (Fort Crown Point), Fort Ticonderoga, French and Indian War, Battle of Bloody Pond, Starks Rangers, Whitcombs Rangers, Green Mountain Boys, Bunker Hill, Battle of Bennington, Saratoga II, Connecticut British raid, War of 1812 Battle of Plattsburg, Civil War at Gettysburg- New York 5th Cavalry (Hammond's 5th New York Troopers charging Jeb Stuart's Confederate Cavalry) (using our own Morgan chargers -we still breed them), including:
* 2nd NY Cavalry
* 5th NY Cavalry
* 2nd NY Infantry
* 9th NY Infantry
* 13th NY Infantry
* 34th NY Infantry
* 65th NY Infantry
* 76th NY Infantry
* 83rd NY Infantry
* 96th NY Infantry
* 118th NY Infantry
* 13th NY Artillery
* 16th NY Artillery
* 23rd NY Artillery
* 62nd NY Zouaves
* 1st VT Cavalry
* 11th VT Infantry
* 14th VT Infantry
* 50th OH Infantry
* 20th WI Infantry\
then
* 12th US Infantry, WW1, WWII North Africa Tunisia Theatre, and Germany, Korea MIA's, Grenada, Vietnam Afghanistan and Iraq.
Since 1620, my family knows possession of arms was antecedent to the U.S. constitution; everyone of my family had arms under Dutch, British and French rule;
Even my maternal relatives, Mohawks, have borne arms on and off the reservation guaranteed by British treaty of 1763 and numerous U.S, Govt treaties unbroken to this very day.
If U.S. govt guarantees my cousins on the reservation to bear arms FOREVER, so much the more are we all Americans from our foundation exercising that right from 1620 in New England and New York and even earlier (1607, and even earlier in the Northern French colonies in New England and New York) in the other colonies before the Articles of Confederation and the U.S. Constitution.
The U.S. Constitution is a CONFIRMATION and AFFIRMATION of pre-existing conditions, practices and rights of the people dating back to 1066 Magna Carta and brought to our shores by my ancestors from England. (In 1051, in England, Edward the Confessor, raised an army of his own and, since he was king and had the power of mobilizing the fyrd, or NATIONAL MILITIA; most of the other English nobles, who were jealous of Godwin's power, sided with Edward.)
The U.S. Constitution is not a proposal, but an affirmation, a WITNESS to practices back to our ancestors landing here.
The 13 Colonies' Charters and Constitutions mostly pre-dated the U.S. Constitution and the U.S. Constitution drew upon them for the Bill of Rights.
The rights against the English King obtained in 1066 were re-affirmed by rightful LEGAL force of arms by the PEOPLE in 1775 at Concord on the Green and postulated as fact and rights affirmed by our founding Fathers in tHe U.S. Constitution.
(http://www.archives.gov/exhibit_hall/featured_documents/magna_carta/)
COMMON LAW DERIVED FROM MAGNA CARTA:
New Jersey Constitution, 1776
And whereas, in the present deplorable situation of these
COLONIES, exposed to the fury of a cruel and relentless enemy,
some form of government is absolutely necessary, not only for the
preservation of good order, but also the more effectually TO UNITE THE PEOPLE,
and enable them to exert THEIR WHOLE FORCE in their
own necessary defence
XXII. That the common law of England, as well as so much of
the statute law, as have been heretofore practised in this Colony,
shall still remain in force
In PROVINCIAL CONGRESS, New Jersey,
Burlington, July 2, 1776.
By order of Congress.
SAMUEL TUCKER, Pres.
William Paterson, Secretary.
http://www.state.nj.us/njfacts/njdoc10a.htm
This will appear the more necessary, when it is considered, that not only the Constitution and laws made in pursuance thereof, but all treaties made, under the authority of the United States, are the supreme law of the land, and supersede the Constitutions of all the States.
-Brutus Anti-Federalist #84
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