Science Icon Fires Broadside At Creationists

London Times vis The Statesman (India) ^ | 04 July 2004 | Times of London Editorial

[js1138]

Plant 'em.

I see you work for Microsoft in the QA department.

[Doctor Stochastic]

The wikipedia discussion of life points out some of the problems with trying to create definitions for borderline cases. The real world doesn't neatly pigeonhole itself into clearcut cases.

Does one want to call a mountain range "living"? They do grow, move, emit offspring, etc.

The hills are going somewhere;
They have been on the way a long time.
They are like camels in a line
But they move more slowly.

- Hilda Conkling

[AndrewC]

I see you work for Microsoft in the QA department.

No, but everything that Microsoft makes is alive.

Because of all the bugs.

[Ichneumon]

Just take two skin cells, one alive, one dead and describe the difference between them.

In the dead one, the biochemical machinery has ceased to operate.

[Doctor Stochastic]

Dead meat can also have bugs.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thanks for your reply and question!

What would you say about a snipet of DNA that is excised from one cell and inserted into a viable, reproducing line of creatures, possibly of another order?

I would roughly equate that to taking a program off of my computer and putting it on yours. Both computers are still computers which operate - you just got a little extra software and perhaps can now do more or do things differently. Of course, if it were a computer virus it might also destroy your computer.

[Ichneumon]

I would roughly equate that to taking a program off of my computer and putting it on yours.

Is an anthrax spore alive?

[AndrewC]

Dead meat can also have bugs.

Well, then dead meat with bugs is alive. Dead meat with dead bugs is not alive. But dead meat is not living.

[js1138]

As a software developer, my motto was, If it compiles, ship it.

[js1138]

Unfortunately my environment insisted on variation and selection.

[AndrewC]

As a software developer, my motto was, If it compiles, ship it.

Ewwww. Well, you do meet the shipping date that way.

[Alamo-Girl]

Is an anthrax spore alive?

Yes. It is in a dormant state (like a stand by mode) but still communicates with itself and the environment, when a food supply exists (like in a human lung) - it comes out of the dormant state.

[edsheppa]

The phrase was "relatively simple" meaning simple relative to the complex metabolism.

[js1138]

The phrase was "relatively simple" meaning simple relative to the complex metabolism.

I don't understand. Does this mean that parasites living on a more complex host are not alive? I am not trying to trivialize this question. Life on earth is interconnected, and it makes no sense to me to assert that an entity such as a virus or prion is not alive, simply because it depends on a host for metabolism.

[Alamo-Girl]

Fascinating. To the thought experiment I raised “Just take two skin cells, one alive, one dead and describe the difference between them” your responses were very similar:

Doctor Stochastic: The "live" cell will be generally more active than the "dead" cell. (Chemical reactions going on, etc.)

Ichneumon: In the dead one, the biochemical machinery has ceased to operate.

What Doctor Stochastic calls being “active” and what Ichneumon calls “operating” is what I have been reading as “information”, i.e. “successful communication”. Or in the newer (albeit somewhat less communicative) Shannon based definition “decrease in uncertainty”.

Both of you have prejudiced your verb choice with biochemical causation. But it seems to me that suggesting cause is circular reasoning and thus should not be a factor in answering the question, especially since both the live and dead cells have the same basic chemical composition and DNA.

"Activity" or "operation" are fairly close to "information" but IMHO fall short in that you could shake a dead skin cell like a martini and it would still not be alive. IOW, such activity or operation must be also be autonomous and meaningful. Therefore, I prefer the word I see used most often to describe it: information (successful communication). The dead skin cell has ceased to communicate.

[MacDorcha]

that isnt science, thats morals and philosphy.

[MacDorcha]

"almost" does not = "is"

[MacDorcha]

you think Adam was a Jew? no, Man simply had an understanding of God then. after a few chances to redeem themselves, God laid down the Law and formed the Jewish Nation. thus "salvation" was possible.

if you anti-Creationists like, you can replace "salvation" with "reasoning"

[MacDorcha]

if it exists soemwhere, it must be able to exist with us as well. the idea that we all originated from a single point would lead me to assume here is as good as there.

[tortoise]

Man simply had an understanding of God then. after a few chances to redeem themselves, God laid down the Law and formed the Jewish Nation. thus "salvation" was possible.

So what happened in the prior 10,000 years or so of civilization? Was it impossible for salvation in that time? This is a perfectly serious question. An odd one, but serious. God being God, it isn't like there was a shortage of time to introduce one's self. What took so long that it was necessary to condemn millions without so much as an opportunity to even know that God existed?