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Rasul v Bush - Scalia Dissents
SCOTUS ^ | 6/28/04 | Justice Scalia et al

Posted on 06/28/2004 6:21:38 PM PDT by jwalsh07

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To: AndyJackson
What the heck are you talking about? Treaties ratifed by Congress are laws and the Constitution does not provide for stealing land from sovereign nations.

You do understand that the lease of 1903 makes it abundantly clear that GITMO remains under Cuban sovereignty don't you?

121 posted on 06/28/2004 10:14:13 PM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: jwalsh07
We took over a hundred thousand POW's in Gulf War 1. Think about the potential market for American ambulance chasers and hate America firsters.

Why don't you read the WSJ article she posted? It is a whole lot shorter than the SC opinion that you didn't bother to read. Nowhere does it say any of that. In fact, according to the article, the decision[s] are pretty deferential to the authority of the executive. It is just that that authority is not absolute.

122 posted on 06/28/2004 10:14:55 PM PDT by AndyJackson
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To: AndyJackson
Habeas Corpus can be suspended. Is that your opinion and the opinion of the SC ruling?

in the even of invasion or public rebellion per the constitution. Under the circumstances, 9/11 being long long over...

9/11 is not long over. We are not finished defending ourselves after 9/11. It's not the SC's authority to determine when we are through defending ourselves. That would be the job of the Chief Executive.

Habeas Corpus can be suspended during war and it's not up to the SC to determine when the war is over.

123 posted on 06/28/2004 10:16:00 PM PDT by FreeReign
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To: Eva
Depends. Remember the Al Qa'ida guy who was American born who got the CIA drone missile in the butt?

Were his "due process" rights violated?

124 posted on 06/28/2004 10:16:03 PM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: jwalsh07
You do understand that the lease of 1903 makes it abundantly clear that GITMO remains under Cuban sovereignty don't you?

So then the Cuban courts could review the authority of the U.S. government to detain prisoners there? I really don't think that that is what you are trying to argue. What you are really trying to argue is that the lease creates a legal no-man's land where the Congress can grant extra- constitutional powers to the President. I really don't think we want to go there.

125 posted on 06/28/2004 10:18:11 PM PDT by AndyJackson
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To: AndyJackson
Look clown, I think its abundantly clear to the casual reader which one of us has read the opinions and which one hasn't. You're arguments get crappier as the night wears on. You can't even acknowledge when you are wrong and you are wrong often. You are wrong about sovereignty, you were wrong about the suspension of habeas and you are way wrong in your analysis of the far reaching effects this decision could have.

The clue for you will be when Congress acts to reign in this decision. I'll be sure to remind you when it happens.

126 posted on 06/28/2004 10:20:44 PM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: FreeReign
Habeas Corpus can be suspended during war and it's not up to the SC to determine when the war is over.

well first the Constitution says what it says and not some other words, so I am not so entirely sure what it means in this case. But it is not up to the President, on his own authority, to suspend habeas and decide when it is no longer suspended. If, as you argue, it is suspended in time of war, then first the Congress would have to declare war and state as part of it that they are suspending the writ. The rest of the question is moot since Congress has not done so.

127 posted on 06/28/2004 10:21:29 PM PDT by AndyJackson
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To: jwalsh07

No, I don't remember that one.


128 posted on 06/28/2004 10:21:59 PM PDT by Eva
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To: jwalsh07
The final order states as follows: Whether and what further proceedings may become necessary after respondents make their response to the merits of petitioners’ claims are matters that we need not address now. What is presently at stake is only whether the federal courts have jurisdiction to determine the le-gality of the Executive’s potentially indefinite detention of individuals who claim to be wholly innocent of wrongdo-ing. Answering that question in the affirmative, we re-verse the judgment of the Court of Appeals and remand for the District Court to consider in the first instance the merits of petitioners’ claims.
129 posted on 06/28/2004 10:22:48 PM PDT by AndyJackson
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To: jwalsh07
You are wrong about sovereignty

You are engaged in a semantic argument about the meaning of the word sovereignty, as is the Executive Branch. The SC decision cuts through that nonsense, basically asserting that where the powers of the Congress reach, those powers are circumscribed by the constitution. The executive is arguing that it has powers granted by the Congress (i.e. it is exercising sovereign power) under the constitution, but those powers are not reviewable by the courts because the U.S. is not sovereign. Well someone is? Who? You have a choice - the U.S. government or the Cuban government. You are free to chose the Cuban government, but just understand what that assertion means.

you were wrong about the suspension of habeas

All I did was quote the exact wording of the Constitution. Tell me verbatim where I am wrong.

130 posted on 06/28/2004 10:28:13 PM PDT by AndyJackson
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To: AndyJackson
Congress would have to declare war and state as part of it that they are suspending the writ. The rest of the question is moot since Congress has not done so.

Congress did declare war. The Chief Executive can suspend the Writ of Habeas Corpus during war.

131 posted on 06/28/2004 10:28:52 PM PDT by FreeReign
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To: jwalsh07
Look clown

Look clown, who is sovereign at Gitmo - Castro or the U.S.? You have argued that Castro is. When Castro - the sovereign - issues a decree that the prisoners be freed what are we to do - free them or assert that Castro really isn't sovereign after all.

The real problem is that you want Bush or Rumsfeld as dictator. I admire both of them very much - but not THAT much.

132 posted on 06/28/2004 10:31:26 PM PDT by AndyJackson
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To: AndyJackson
So then the Cuban courts could review the authority of the U.S. government to detain prisoners there? I really don't think that that is what you are trying to argue. What you are really trying to argue is that the lease creates a legal no-man's land where the Congress can grant extra- constitutional powers to the President. I really don't think we want to go there.

Gitmo is subject to the sovereign laws of the Republic of Cuba whose laws are only superseded by the specifics of the 1934 treaty.

133 posted on 06/28/2004 10:33:53 PM PDT by FreeReign
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To: AndyJackson
If the writ can be suspended then they could come along and take you off to Guantanimo and lock you up for the duration, and no one can say bo about it

Did you write this or was it your evil alter ego?

134 posted on 06/28/2004 10:36:03 PM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: FreeReign
Congress did declare war. The Chief Executive can suspend the Writ of Habeas Corpus during war.

First, where did Congress declare war? They gave the President many powers that are tantamount to declaring war, but one thing that they did not do was pass a statute circumscribing, limiting or suspending the writ of habeas corpus in this case.

Where does anything say that the Chief Executive can on his own authority suspend habeas corpus, a decision which is at best within the authorit of the legislature? I presume there is no precendet for that or Ted Olson would have made that argument. The government did not argue that habeas corpus was suspended. They argued that it did not apply because of a legal technicality that no court had the authority to review it. The SC justly slapped them down for that extreme bit of silliness.

135 posted on 06/28/2004 10:36:39 PM PDT by AndyJackson
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To: AndyJackson
The real problem is that you want Bush or Rumsfeld as dictator

LOL.

136 posted on 06/28/2004 10:37:53 PM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: jwalsh07
Did you write this or was it your evil alter ego?

I wrote that. I am serious. Without the privelege of writ of habeas corpus there is nothing to prevent anyone with any sort of authority to haul you off at gunpoint, lock you up and throw away the key.

137 posted on 06/28/2004 10:38:36 PM PDT by AndyJackson
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To: jwalsh07
LOL

Well you have argued that they have the authority to abrogate to themselves unreviewable powers. I don't think that is such a laughable thing, myself.

138 posted on 06/28/2004 10:40:03 PM PDT by AndyJackson
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To: AndyJackson
First, where did Congress declare war?

The Constitution assigns the power to declare war to the Congress,, it is silent on the method of doing so. Congress chose to do it by Congressional Authorization, a de facto declaration of war.

If they so chose they could simply wirte a short note to the POTUS saying "kill the bastards" and that would also be within their War Powers.

139 posted on 06/28/2004 10:40:59 PM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: FreeReign
Gitmo is subject to the sovereign laws of the Republic of Cuba whose laws are only superseded by the specifics of the 1934 treaty.

Anser me again, who exercises sovereign power. Cuba or the U.S.? If Cuba then when Castro issues a write freeing all of the prisoner's do we comply. If we chose not to, then whose court system gets to review it. If you answer none, or certainly not Cuba's then they are not sovereign.

140 posted on 06/28/2004 10:42:29 PM PDT by AndyJackson
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