Bush Brought a Gift for the Pope: The Alliance Between Catholics and Evangelicals

WWW>CHIESA ^ | 6/7/2004 | Sandro Magister

[RnMomof7]

A ping for a friend

[ZOTnot]

Add me to the ping list please!

[ZOTnot]

So what if events bring us to the end-time results? Isn't that what we all desire?

And I take exception to your comments about the Pope. Judging from the healing he has brought to peoples and to nations, I do not see him as being a 'false prophet.'

I'm sure all of Poland would support your conclusions....(among other nations)....

What evil has he brought personally into your life in recent years?

[mlmr]

As a former Catholic who is now an Evangelical Prot, I rejoice at the teaming of two of the best philosophical and moral systems in the world. It will be a force for good.

[ChinaGotTheGoodsOnClinton]

And as a former Evangelical Protestant who is now Catholic, I agree.

[rose]

For those of you who do not know, Fr. Richard John Neuhaus of First Things magazine, is an intellectual, very intelligent. I have read his writings and magazine.

The Point, President Bush likes him and counsels with him, President Bush is far more intelligent than people realize.

[Snuffington]

As a Catholic, I can honestly say Fr. Neuhaus close involvement with the president makes me feel more confident in voting for him. I can't honestly pretend I would have voted for Kerry otherwise, but who knows? Maybe this swings a few votes.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

If I'm not mistaken, all sects trace their roots to Catholicism. ~~ I'm afraid you are mistaken. Not all protestant denominations trace their roots to catholicism. Most of them trace their roots to the Protestant Reformation. ~~ The roots before all that. You know, Peter, the Rock I build my Church on, etc., etc. I don't think I am mistaken, but if I am, you didn't make a good case for how I am.

Respectfully, the Eastern Orthodox would, of course, maintain that Roman Catholicism traces its roots to Eastern Orthodoxy -- not the other way around.

However, even in the West, there is an ancient and venerable Independent and non-Roman Christian Faith Tradition dating back to the earliest days of the Church. This lineage can be traced through the Presbyters of Iona and the Ambrosian-Rite Christians of Northern Italy and the Alps (whom even the Popes themselves admitted to be independent of Roman Jurisdiction until well into the 10th Century), through the 11-15th Century Waldensian Christians, to the Reformers themselves. At the 1532 Angrogne Confession, the Reformers severed their adherence to Papal Rome and instead covenanted themselves to this ancient and Independent Christian Faith Tradition.

You can read all about it HERE: The Covenant Line: From Eden to Independence Hall

The Angrogne confession was a direct result of the contact that the Waldenses had with the Reformers in the year 1530. The story is in many ways a thrilling one; the beleaguered, dispirited Waldenses of Savoy, fearing themselves to be the only true Christians left in the world and facing the possibility of total extermination at the hands of their Catholic enemies, suddenly began to hear accounts of a great religious movement sweeping the lands to the north of them, in which men and women were rejecting Catholic falsehoods and turning back to the truths of the Bible as the Waldenses understood them. Two representatives were sent from Piedmont to Basel to meet with the Lutheran Reformer Oecolampadius, who was astonished and pleased to learn of the existence of the faithful Waldenses who had preserved the evangelical faith from the time of the apostles, and he gave them much advice and godly counsel. ~~ (Williamson, Ibid.)

A manifold interest belongs to the meeting of these two Churches. Each is a miracle to the other. The preservation of the Vaudois Church for so many ages, amid the fires of persecution, made her a wonder to the Church of the sixteenth century. The bringing up of the latter from the dead made her a yet greater wonder to the Church of the first century. These two churches compare their respective beliefs: they find that their creeds are not twain, but one. They compare the sources of their knowledge: they find that they have both of them drawn their doctrine from the Word of God; they are not two Churches, they are one. They are the elder and younger members of the same glorious family, the children of the same father. ~~ (Wylie, “History of the Waldenses”)

According to the very best of 16th-Century Roman Catholic expositors, a definitive theological nomenclature may be assigned to this ancient and venerable Independent and Non-Roman Western Christian Faith Tradition in terms of their covenanted Heirs amongst the Reformers:

• Lindanus, a Catholic bishop of the see of Ghent, who wrote in defence of the tenets of the Church of Rome, about 1550, terms Calvin "the inheritor of the doctrine of the Waldenses."
  
• Mezeray, the celebrated historiographer of France, in his Abridgement of Chronology, speaking of the Waldenses, says, "They held nearly the same opinions as those who are now called Calvinists."
  
• Gualtier, a Jesuitical monk, in his chronological tables, drew up a catalogue consisting of seven and twenty particulars, in which he shows that the principles of the Waldenses, and those of the Calvinists coincided with each other...
• Aeneas Sylvius (afterwards Pope Pius II) declares the doctrine taught by Calvin to be the same as that of the Waldenses...

So there is at least one Western Christian Sect which does not "trace their roots to Catholicism"; at least not Roman Catholicism. This Sect -- having severed its ties with Papal Rome -- refoundationalized their theological basis, covenanting themselves instead to a Western Christian Faith Tradition every bit as ancient and venerable as that of Rome, and (as is admitted by Rome's own defenders) preserved and advanced the Teachings of Independent, Non-Roman Christianity in the West for the benefit of later generations of Christians.

This Sect is called Calvinism.

best, OP

[pctech]

What evil has he brought personally into your life in recent years? He personally has brought me none, but you have to realize that all I'm doing is using the Bible and comparing what the RCC teaches and what the Bible says, and the two on most points do not coincide. What else am I supposed to conclude? IF given the choice of following a failed papal system or God's Holy Word there is no contest. The same thing can be concluded if any denomination, RCC, Episcopal, United Methodist, whatever, if they do not measure up the Bible.

Nuff said.

[pctech]

You know the word "Sect" has such a bad conotation behind it. Try using words like belief, faith, religious body, something along that nature.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thanks for the ping!

[xzins]

The Celtic Church and (I believe) The Scots Church both trace back to early Christianity's expansion.

The Celtic line was restored when Henry VIII left the Roman brand of Catholicism and restored the orthodox church that was extent prior to William the Conqueror. I understand it was essentially the same with the Scots church and that they were predestinarian AND that that is one reason Presbyterianism was so easily welcomed in Scotland.

[SuziQ]

And this in spite of the fact that he is a Methodist, while his opponent, the Democrat John Kerry, is a Catholic.

President Bush is more 'Catholic' than Kerry!

[SuziQ]

And it emerges from his responses that he has a simple and consistent vision of things, with a strong religious imprint.

Uh oh, Ron Reagan is gonna be real upset. ;o)

[rwfromkansas]

I have problems with Catholic theology, but you are as heck aren't a cult.

[rwfromkansas]

He reads Presby Olgolvie's works. Interesting.

[HarleyD]

Bush - Methodist
John Ashcroft - Pentecostalist Assemblies of God
Condoleezza Rice - Baptist
Fr. Neuhaus - Catholic priest

I hope al-Qaida doesn't find out. If they want to bring the government down all they have to do is put on the Cabinet's agenda "Limited vs Unlimited Attonement" or "Sola Scriptura" for the topic.

[AlbionGirl]

Excellent post, and thanks for the link.

[AlbionGirl]

Couldn't agree more.

[Cap'n Crunch]

The Waldense's 'severed their ties with Papal Rome'? Weren't they excommunicated at the Council of Verona?

Peter Waldo started the Waldensians didn't he? In 1176? And then they were all absorbed into the Albigensian heresy.