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To: xsysmgr
From the perspective of secular authorities, heretics were traitors to God and the king and therefore deserved death. From the perspective of the Church, however, heretics were lost sheep who had strayed from the flock. As shepherds, the pope and bishops had a duty to bring them back into the fold, just as the Good Shepherd had commanded them. So, while medieval secular leaders were trying to safeguard their kingdoms, the Church was trying to save souls. The Inquisition provided a means for heretics to escape death and return to the community.

This is a lie on it's face as attested to by Lateran IV and the prodding of the Pope that led to the Constitution of Lombardy.

I'll repost here:

We excommunicate and anathematize every heresy that raises against the holy, orthodox and Catholic faith which we have above explained; condemning all heretics under whatever names they may be known, for while they have different faces they are nevertheless bound to each other by their tails, since in all of them vanity is a common element. Those condemned, being handed over to the secular rulers of their bailiffs, let them be abandoned, to be punished with due justice, clerics being first degraded from their orders. As to the property of the condemned, if they are laymen, let it be confiscated; if clerics, let it be applied to the churches from which they received revenues. But those who are only suspected, due consideration being given to the nature of the suspicion and the character of the person, unless they prove their innocence by a proper defense, let them be anathematized and avoided by all 1-intil they have made suitable satisfaction; but if they have been under excommunication for one year, then let them be condemned as heretics. Secular authorities, whatever office they may hold, shall be admonished and induced and if necessary compelled by ecclesiastical censure, that as they wish to be esteemed and numbered among the faithful, so for the defense of the faith they ought publicly to take an oath that they will strive in good faith and to the best of their ability to exterminate in the territories subject to their jurisdiction all heretics pointed out by the Church; so that whenever anyone shall have assumed authority, whether spiritual or temporal, let him be bound to confirm this decree by oath. But if a temporal ruler, after having been requested and admonished by the Church, should neglect to cleanse his territory of this heretical foulness, let him be excommunicated by the metropolitan and the other bishops of the province. If he refuses to make satisfaction within a year, let the matter be made known to the supreme pontiff, that he may declare the ruler's vassals absolved from their allegiance and may offer the territory to be ruled lay Catholics, who on the extermination of the heretics may possess it without hindrance and preserve it in the purity of faith; the right, however, of the chief ruler is to be respected as long as he offers no obstacle in this matter and permits freedom of action. The same law is to be observed in regard to those who have no chief rulers (that is, are independent). Catholics who have girded themselves with the cross for the extermination of the heretics, shall enjoy the indulgences and privileges granted to those who go in defense of the Holy Land. 4th Lateran Council, Canon 3

This followed the stance of Lateran 3 and the arm twisting of the Pope to get the kings to declare heresy a capitol offense. It wasn't the idea of the kings; but, of the church. The Constitution of Lombardy was the answer of Germany to the Vatican's constant harping on the issue. Yet you guys sit there and act as though it were the other way around when your own documents belie it. And let us not forget, the church was putting people to death for their beliefs long before the office of inquisition opened for business. It wasn't exactly a new idea.

36 posted on 06/18/2004 10:55:37 AM PDT by Havoc ("The line must be drawn here. This far and no further!")
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To: Havoc

Thanks, you have supported what I was trying to say.


38 posted on 06/18/2004 11:07:27 AM PDT by Hunble
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To: Havoc
You're hysterical as always. For those not prone to flights of fantasy and interested in facts, consider:

exterminate

\Ex*ter"mi*nate\, v. t. [imp. & p. p. Exterminated; p. pr. & vb. n. Exterminating.] [L. exterminatus, p. p. of exterminare to abolish, destroy, drive out or away; ex out + terminus boundary, limit. See Term.] 1. To drive out or away; to expel.

They deposed, exterminated, and deprived him of communion. --Barrow.

(SD: exterminated and deprived of communion? That's pretty bad. We usually give communion to the dead.)

2. To destroy utterly; to cut off; to extirpate; to annihilate; to root out; as, to exterminate a colony, a tribe, or a nation; to exterminate error or vice.

To explode and exterminate rank atheism. --Bentley.

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc

Of course, to the Havoc-inclined, you are suppoed to remain ignorant of the meaning of words and believe that this Papal pronouncement is calling for the killing of all heretics, when it is instead calling for them to be removed from territories. As a source of division and conflict, seperation seemed only fitting. That is a discussion which can continue.

But put aside any notions that this means the Pope was whipping out a big can of Raid in order to kill. heretics. dead.

SD

42 posted on 06/18/2004 11:50:55 AM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: Havoc

No one has claimed that "every Catholic alive at that time loved the Inq! They had a thing like All-Star voting, and people voted for their favorite torturer!" The thing existed, was monstrously evil, and trying to minimize the evil of it backfires with many people. Even if the Inq authorities had, and strictly adhered to, a 15 minute time limit that anyone could be tortured, I'm not impressed.


167 posted on 06/18/2004 7:57:06 PM PDT by 185JHP ( "Who is this King of Glory? The Lord strong and mighty, invincible in battle.")
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