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To: Havoc
If there is anything I've ever seen that is heretical, it is what you just said.

Doesn't one have to be a believer in order to be a heretic?

So you don't think you should stand in judgement over your fellow humans, eh? Doesn't it give you pause that others Christians who believe just as passionately as you, and maybe more, have a different conclusion? It's historical fact that standards and beliefs have changed dramatically over time and from place to place. To me that is powerful evidence that absolute values, should they exist, are unknowable by us.

254 posted on 06/19/2004 6:18:47 PM PDT by edsheppa
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To: edsheppa

lol. Right, I've never been a catholic but these guys think me a heretic. As Catholicism goes, I am. As Christianity goes, I'm not.

As far as standing in judgement, sorry, try again. You essentially have done what others always do - you've abused the standard and misconstrued it to mean something it doesn't.
Something a Christian would understand.

As far as what is believed - there is One belief. Christ said in Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
There are two ways to read this; but, only one is right. There are two baptisms listed in the New testament - water baptism and the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. John's Baptism was of water. Jesus' baptism was of the Holy Spirit. To say that they are interchangeable is fallacy. It is not a matter of who's interpreting it. Nor can one say that believeing either makes one right.

Now, can people look at that and get it wrong legitimately - yep. And that is why Christ spoke in parables - knowing that those who weren't of him would misread what he said, get it wrong and thusly betray themselves simply by opening their mouths to pronounce the misunderstanding. This is why we look to Scripture as the final authority.

You're empassioned plea that other "christians" believe somethin different is begging the question and on it's face faulty. Simon Magus was born again and yet believed he could buy the Holy Spirit. That didn't make his belief valid and he was duly rebuked. And there are plenty of people out there claiming Christianity that haven't the first clue what it is. Christianity is not a matter of diverse opinions. Christianity is an agreement penned by God and handed to us to accept or decline. Failing to accept it doesn't mean that interpreting it a different way than was intended becomes the norm. And there is no matter in language in normal daily life where such a standard is applied accept in investigation - trying to use one's intellect to figure out something that is not a blatent given.

I don't know where you got your notions of understanding truth; but, they aren't spiritual and they sure aren't christian.

Saying that standards and beliefs have changed is suspect on it's face. Christianity was handed us as a completed work. Christianity is unchanging. Other religions might change based on fads; but, God isn't into fads. God is consistent.
And Christianity as a covenant was delivered as the promise of his original covenant with Israel. There may be a bunch of sects out there that have changed over time because they've been following philosophy instead of Christ. But Christianity is the same covenant it was when it was delivered and sealed by the blood of Christ.

It's hilarious to sit on a thread where we hear that getting something wrong is heresy worth putting someone to death over and at the same time, one can sit and beg reason over the ability to interpret something differently and it should be "ok". It's not ok. But at the same time, it's also not ok to murder someone for being wrong. That we get from scripture. And no, there isn't another way to interpret it.

Finally, absolute values are knowable to us because God gave us his word on it in scripture. If you don't have the capacity to believe his word, then this is all elementary - you've failed the first requirement of being Christian - that is believing God.


256 posted on 06/19/2004 6:54:59 PM PDT by Havoc ("The line must be drawn here. This far and no further!")
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