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Broken Windows
Daring Fireball ^ | 6/4/2004 | John Gruber

Posted on 06/13/2004 11:39:42 PM PDT by Swordmaker

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To: DB
Can anyone tell me why mail servers aren't commonly configured to block all executable attachments (at least make it a user option)?

How about just making an email client that won't automatically open attachments or run scripts that will do the dirty work? After several years and countless worms, Microsoft is finally getting the message, but won't admit the damage it has done.

I've never had this problem because I don't use Outlook at home even though my mail server filters nothing but spam. At work where it's Outlook/Exchange they have attachments so locked down that it's hard to send files around that are necessary to do our work.

61 posted on 06/14/2004 7:55:51 AM PDT by antiRepublicrat
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To: Charlotte Corday
"The problem is the user requirements. Useability: 10

There is no way Windows usability can be classified as 10. Most aspects of the GUI and coding guidelines are just horrible. The basic UI has been around since 95, and Windows UI designers still can't understand the concept of infinite height and meaningful dialogs!

62 posted on 06/14/2004 7:59:46 AM PDT by antiRepublicrat
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To: DreadCthulhu
It is much harder to accidently install stuff under Linux, OSX or other Unix-like OS's, which is why they don't get crap-ware.

This is something the article glossed over, that kind of bugged me. It doesn't make the Mac any less secure or anything, that he believes it to be one thing, when reality is that it is another.

If he wants to believe it's some kind of good neighbor-type policy, I guess whatever floats your boat.

63 posted on 06/14/2004 8:11:32 AM PDT by af_vet_rr
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To: antiRepublicrat
Windows UI designers still can't understand the concept of... meaningful dialogs!

I strongly suspected windows dialog boxes are the Microsoft analogue to Disney's penchant for embedding phallic symbols in the product.

64 posted on 06/14/2004 8:14:28 AM PDT by Woahhs (the choice is not between peace and war, only between fight and surrender.)
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To: af_vet_rr

How is he "glossing over" something that's completely true? It's not a matter of his "belief."


65 posted on 06/14/2004 8:19:37 AM PDT by Woahhs (the choice is not between peace and war, only between fight and surrender.)
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To: Swordmaker

BTTT


66 posted on 06/14/2004 8:20:33 AM PDT by Fiddlstix (This Tagline for sale. (Presented by TagLines R US))
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To: DB
Well XP and Win2k can be setup to be stable and hassle free. It is crucial to have the firewall enabled and all patches current.

I think folks are comparing the latest version of the Mac OS with Windows NT, which dates back to 1994.

I just spent two days reaming out an NT server that was infected with a dozen different exploits. Interestingly, it still ran, and after disinfecting, it runs cleanly. It was installed in 1999 and had no virus scanner or firewall, and neither did any of the twenty workstations. It's pretty hard to blame Windows for the neglect of its operators.

67 posted on 06/14/2004 8:56:37 AM PDT by js1138 (In a minute there is time, for decisions and revisions which a minute will reverse. J Forbes Kerry)
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To: antiRepublicrat
(Gates) decided he was going to take over this new Internet thing.

Bill is correct in stating that nothing is guaranteed - MS has to 'recapture' new/existing customers on every release. I've been a PC user for over 20 years, but I can definitely foresee a future where alternatives could begin to make headway.

I'm a reasonably seasoned user and try to keep my system clean. On just a personal level, the amount of time I have to deal with *crapware* maintenance (scanning, etc) is a hassle. One can only imagine what major corps have to endure.

As std apps like word proc, spreadsheets, etc become commodities, the differentiating feature behind major IT purchases could be simplicity. Contrary to historical experience, a clean sheet system purpose built for the Net and with limited prior generational support could make inroads, especially since most archival info seems to be Net based (ie html) these days.

68 posted on 06/14/2004 9:24:38 AM PDT by Snerfling
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To: Woahhs
How is he "glossing over" something that's completely true? It's not a matter of his "belief."

I should have phrased it better. What he is talking about (good neighbors, no tolerance for those types of programs/malware, etc.) are pretty much moot points. OS X is secure because of it's Unix underpinnings, not because we have less tolerance for "crapware" than Windows users ("crapware is a very good term for it).

People who are writing malware don't particularly care what others think, or how quickly word would spread. They are going to take the easy route and go after Windows because it's much more vulnerable right out of the box.

69 posted on 06/14/2004 10:18:37 AM PDT by af_vet_rr
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To: Swordmaker

The neighborhood analogy is partly true: you see it in Mac user's esthetic demands as well. Butt-ugly and confusing software is routinely accepted in WIndows, but Mac users demand more. (Even MS acknowledges this in their Office product, which is far nicer on the Mac.)

At the same time, MS has simply never understood the Internet. They started as a standalone desktop system and because they filter every single decision through the "how do we maintain and extend our current product's monopoly" filter, they've never been able to catch up.

MacOS X is based on UNIX, which was multi-user from the beginning and was the platform on which the Internet was developed. You can't underestimate that heritage.


70 posted on 06/14/2004 11:18:20 AM PDT by the Wayne
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To: zeugma
"The reason mail servers don't reject all executable attachment, is because it is not the mail server's job to police your PC. Just because the security model of windows is broken, doesn't mean we have to change the way we send mail."

Well that's a nice unbusiness/elitist like position.

Email servers now commonly have spam filters. I suppose that's really not their problem either... Attachment filters would be far easier to implement and help solve a lot of problems.

It is all about the customer. You know, they guy paying for the Email service.
71 posted on 06/14/2004 11:40:05 AM PDT by DB (©)
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To: DB

Here's a few reasons why this is not yet common:

It costs more money; for many, if not most, ISP, email is not their primary business, providing access is. Managing an email server(s) can be quite troublesome and costly, increasing that cost makes it harder to provide lower cost access.

A universal policy (stripping ALL executable attachments) is much easier in a corporate environment (where they also manage their own server). Here it would be part of company policy - "such files should be handled thusly..." It's desired by the "user" (company) in all cases. If a public ISP applied this, they could likely royally screw up some of its customer's major use for email.

Lastly, zipped files can also spread viruses, so even this wouldn't be a perfect system.

Now, virus/spam scanning on the email gateway, is a much more viable option. There are many ISPs who offer this. It adds expense too.

The worst ISPs I've seen are cable companies. Their spam filtering often consists of list blocking - an ineffective and counterproductive method. And their virus blocking - in my experience - is non-existent.


72 posted on 06/14/2004 11:53:26 AM PDT by D-fendr
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To: zeugma
Popups are only a problem to people using obsolete browsers (i.e., IE).

I've been annoyed by pop-ups using I.E. or Netscape on a Mac, or I.E. or a Compuserve browser on a PC. This is true with older and newer browsers, any Windows version, or any Mac OS 9.xx or below. I have no idea how to stop them. I believe (but I'm not sure) that Compuserve is a Mozilla based browser.

73 posted on 06/14/2004 12:05:17 PM PDT by exDemMom (Think like a liberal? Oxymoron!)
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To: amigatec
This may not be a MAC problem. Iomega sold some drive with bad heads. The drive themselves were tearing up the zip disks.

It was a Mac problem, caused by software. When I put the disk in the drive, the Mac read it as someone else's disk, but then said there was a disk error because that person's files were not there. I had to get a computer geek to recover my files. The disk itself was not physically damaged. Even when that Zip drive died, it did not physically destroy any disks. My problem would NEVER have happened on a PC, since the way a PC reacts when you change disks is completely different than a Mac.

74 posted on 06/14/2004 12:13:37 PM PDT by exDemMom (Think like a liberal? Oxymoron!)
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To: antiRepublicrat
I can't count the number of Windows machines I've seen spontaneously combust.

I've never seen it, except in the case of my son's machines. He's always opening them and putting shareware on them--it's no wonder he has trouble with them!

75 posted on 06/14/2004 12:17:57 PM PDT by exDemMom (Think like a liberal? Oxymoron!)
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To: exDemMom
-- Firefox will automatically block pop-ups, and with extensions (which you can DL for free), you can customize your browsing experience to work the way you think.

For instance, I block all AOL images from my browser, so I don't have to look at that crapware.

76 posted on 06/14/2004 12:26:11 PM PDT by ShadowAce (Linux -- The Ultimate Windows Service Pack)
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To: Swordmaker

Maybe there are so few Macs out there that creating inimical code is just not cost effective...


77 posted on 06/14/2004 12:28:33 PM PDT by Junior (Love isn't always on time. Sometimes you have to pay for it up front.)
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To: exDemMom
When I put the disk in the drive, the Mac read it as someone else's disk, but then said there was a disk error because that person's files were not there.

Been using macs and zips since they were invented - never heard of this. I've taken a PC zip, copied files off a PC and read them on a Mac. I think something else must be going on here, perhaps a corrupted copy, file or disk, most likely.

78 posted on 06/14/2004 12:44:25 PM PDT by D-fendr
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To: exDemMom
I don't know what the problem is then. I can't remember the last time I saw a popup. Regarding compuserve, I didn't even know that was still around! :-)
79 posted on 06/14/2004 12:58:05 PM PDT by zeugma (The Great Experiment is over.)
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To: D-fendr
We use Lunarpages to host our business' Web site and Email. They offer many management features including spam filtering but no attachment filtering (that I can find). It would seem like a natural basic management tool well worth the trouble.

A zip file is just another level of protection of an otherwise useful but dangerous capability.
80 posted on 06/14/2004 12:59:35 PM PDT by DB (©)
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